Why did Sauron need ring?

[Boo Radley]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Yes, I do understand that. But it would seem that the Free Peoples may have had the attitude "we beat you once with the damn ring, we can surely beat you without it". But none of that comes through. Its all "we are dead meat if Sauron gets his ring back". They already beat him once when he had the ring. That is the part that seems contradictory to me.

Its akin to Florida having to play Ohio State yet again for the NCAA basketball title and this time Ohio does not even have its best player. They beat them once already when they had more firepower. Why would they not think they would simply repeat that task?

OK, granted that Sauron didn't have the Ring, but at the same time, the Free Peoples didn't have any of their heavy hitters like the last time either.
Perhaps they felt that as long as Sauron didn't get his mits on the Ring, they had a good chance of beating him (but if Frodo hadn't gotten to Mt. Doom when he did, they probably wouldn't have), but they had to look at the worst case scenario where Sauron WOULD get the Ring and if that happens, they probably figured, "Oh... we are SO hosed!"

Just my take on it. Your mileage may vary.

[Sauron the White]

Thats a good point that the Free Peoples had lost much of their fire power also -- no big Elvish army to count on with Gil-galad leading the way. And I guess Elrond explains why nobody else like the Dwarves can be counted on. Good points all.

So I do understand a bit more now. But I do feel that this overpowering feeling of "if Sauron gets the ring we are toast" is also a bit overdone.

But still my favorite book. Thanks to all for contributing.

[Boo Radley]

I have to admit, there's not a whole lot of optimism by any of the involved parties, but then, from their perspective, it must have been like,
"What??? SAURON'S back in town??? Just when thing's were starting to go good, he shows up like yesterday's bad tamale! Well... there goes the neighborhood! Anybody know if Cirdan's looking for a new cabin boy? I work cheap."

Not a pretty picture.

[The 1,000 Reader]

To be honest, I do have to agree. When Sauron had the Ring he didn't seem to have any extra abilities and his hosts didn't seem any better. In a way, the One Ring was a failure in my eyes; the elves could just take their rings off, the dwarves only focused on themselves (and they might have become stronger,) and the Nazgul didn't need the One Ring to be controlled after they were made. All Sauron had was a band of gold on his finger. The Last Alliance was composed of the survivors of Numenor (few and lacking a good deal of their standard supplies) and and kingdom of elves that was much, much weaker than the kingdoms in the First Age. Without any divine backing or even a prophecy, they marched in, destroyed Mordor, and killed Sauron.

With the destruction of Arnor, the Great Plague, and the elves getting "depressed" and leaving, the reason that Sauron would have won in the Third Age is that only he had the "morale" or want to summon a large army up. Everybody else was either giving up or suffering from previous problems.

After reading the book, the Ring seemed more dangerous in the hands of Sauron's enemies than in Sauron's own. Everybody was at risk of becoming obsessed over it and killing each other for the Ring.

[Boromir88]

What the Ring did for Sauron all we know is that Tolkien said it 'enhanced' his power:

While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished.'~Letter to Milton Waldman

Another thing to note about this is that the Ring's power was in 'rapport' or bound to Sauron. Therefor without the Ring Sauron could still rebuild his body if it was destroyed (as he did several times). When he lost the Ring after being overthrown by Gil-galad and Elendil, even without it Sauron was able to reconstruct a new body. The only ways to kill Sauron completely (to the point where he would remain a spirit and not able to reshape) would be to

1) Someone masters the Ring and essentially takes the place of Sauron becoming the new 'Lord of the Rings.' This wouldn't be the best idea as you would simply be replacing Sauron with another one...as Gandalf points out to Frodo and why he can't take the Ring:

'No!' cried Gandlaf, springing to his feet. 'With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly.' His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within. 'Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself...'~A Shadow of the Past

2) To destroy the Ring and undo everything that is tied to the Ring. When the Ring is destroyed, everything that is bound to it instantaneously dies/crumbles. Sauron is killed, The Ringwraiths perish, and the foundations of Barad-dur crumble.

Now why would Sauron want the Ring back? There are probably several answers but the one that comes to mind first is to prevent #1 from happening. Sauron had no fear the Ring was going to be destroyed (why would he? Tolkien tells us in Letter 246 it was beyond the strength of any will to destroy it). However, Sauron's greatest fear was someone finding the Ring and using it's power against him and using the Ring's power to defeat him:

Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place. This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish control over the minds and wills of his servants.~Letter to Milton Waldman

Sauron's greatest concern was someone would have the power to use the Ring against him and overthrow him...therefor of course he would want the Ring back in his possession as soon as possible.

[Elfchick7]

Ooh! Good answer. That gives me some thoughts to mull around.

No matter how many times I read LOTR and the Sil, I still feel like I don't know anything

[Arathul]

Actually when Sauron still in possesion of the One Ring, he was beaten 3 times.

1. By the aid of Tar-Minastir to Gil-Galad during the War of the Elves and Sauron (1693-1701 S.A.)

2. By the host of Ar-Pharazon of numenor at the end of the second age, though i'm not quite sure wether we can call it a victory.

3. The Last Alliance (as mentioned many times here already)

[Sauron the White]

I do like the answer and reasoning from Boromir88 - Sauron wanted it so nobody else would get it and replace him. That resonates with me. Arathul points out that the ring also did not help Sauron in other situations in which he was bested as well. And I would count his humbling before the might of Ar-Pharazon as a defeat since Sauron was simply cowed and intimidated by the might of the Numenoreans and gave up quickly. It certainly did not help him in that case.

Does anyone here seem to subscribe to the idea that IF Sauron did get the ring from Frodo then he could have somehow increased his might to take over Middle-earth under his rule as many seemed to fear? The two scenes in the films seemed to subscribe to this 1) Sams vision of the future with Hobbiton under Orc domination and the hobbits enslaved, and 2) Merrys comments about "there won't be a Shire Pippin....". I think this idea may have been pushed more in the films than in the book. Or is it just as dominant in the book also?

[Boromir88]

Does anyone here seem to subscribe to the idea that IF Sauron did get the ring from Frodo then he could have somehow increased his might to take over Middle-earth under his rule as many seemed to fear?~Sauron the White

I would say so. I think if Sauron got the Ring it would have only hastened his victory. By this time of the Third Age the people of Middle-earth didn't have enough strength left to beat Sauron militarily. As other posters have pointed out in the prior ages. Most of the Elves had left or were leaving by this time, and the dwarves were a dwindling race. The strongest opposition to Sauron was Gondor and they too were down from their 'glory days.' Gondor reached the height of it's power during King Hyarmendacil's reign and had been declining ever since.

The only hope for the people of Middle-earth was the destruction of the Ring. You can find in The Last Debate several times where Aragorn and others say there is no hope to defeat Sauron through strength of arms. Their only hope was for Frodo (or somehow) to destroy the Ring. Had the Ring not been destroyed, Aragorn (and his 7,000 men with him) at the Black Gate would have been defeated. Which leaves Gondor in a tough spot. Sauron had sent an Easterling force to the Dwarves of Erebor and had already beaten them back into Erebor. He had been assaulting Mirkwood and Lorien. Rivendell was a household and a refuge it had no army, so by this time there was no military strength to defeat Sauron. They may be able to hold him off and gain a few victories but in the long run Sauron would have simply overpowered them.

As Elrond and Galadriel both morbidly point out this idea of 'fighting the long defeat.'

‘I have seen three ages in the West of the world, and many defeats, and many fruitless victories’~The Council of Elrond

'Through the ages of the world we have fought the long defeat’~The Mirror of Galadriel

Now you could argue that Sauron actually could be killed again as he was defeated in the 2nd Age by Gil-galad and Elendil. However, I don't think that's likely. Sauron only came out after his army had been defeated, that's when he challenged Elendil and Gil-galad; and in the War of the Ring Sauron showed no interest in leaving Barad-dur...as I think Denethor correctly points out to Pippin:

'He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won.'~The Siege of Gondor

So, I would say that had the Ring not even been destroyed Sauron would have eventually defeated everyone who opposed him...and had he gotten back the Ring this would have hastened his victory.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Does anyone here seem to subscribe to the idea that IF Sauron did get the ring from Frodo then he could have somehow increased his might to take over Middle-earth under his rule as many seemed to fear?

Since it doesn't look seem like this quote has been brought before:

Originally Posted by Last debate, RotK

Concerning this thing, my lords, you now all know enough for the understanding of our plight, and of Sauron's. If he regains it, your valour is vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts.

Originally Posted by Neithan Tol Turambar

Close to half the number of all the Elves and Men of the West who could wield blade died in that war.

Hm, is there some evidence in that regard?