Beardless

[Boo Radley]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I like to think that Elves could grow beards, if they wanted them, as it might throw up all kinds of slightly uncomfortable* hormonal problems otherwise!
*Literally...

You completely lost me on this one!
Being a bit of a thickie, I think you'll have to explain it to me.
Use pictures if necessary.

[MatthewM]

yeah, do tell...So you think they shaved? haha

[Morwen]

I find that beards are usually given to characters of less nobility, or of mixed blood, or of less stature.

Which characters exactly? The bearded characters that immediately come to my mind are dwarves and Cirdan. Well I suppose dwarves are characters of "less stature" but who are the bearded characters of "less nobility" and "mixed blood"?

[ninja91]

I dont think that it had to do with nobility or anything. All dwarves had beards (as far as I know) and many humans do, and as we all know humans make up some of the most noble beings ever to walk Arda. I think that the perception of Elves being the fairest folk of the land has to present them as somewhat angelic. And gristle does not fit in well there. Elves were known for their valour and grace, and in order to extend that presenting them as fair (and, consequently, smooth and beardless) the Elvish men were not bearded.

[Anáwiel]

When I think of beards in Middle Earth, I think of Gandalf and Saruman and the other wizards, as well as of Dwarves and Wild men... So I don't think it has anything to do with nobility. Some races like it, some probably (like elves) don't.

And it is nowhere said that elves don't have beards, imagine they are like the north-american indians, who have much less facial hair than the other races and remove it.

[Formendacil]

Of course, despite the apparent claims, re: Imrahil and Dol Amroth, that Elven lineage means beardlessness, the Elves themselves are not beardless. Quite apart from Círdan, we have Thranduil (who, though he may have been in the Hobbit is no less a valid image of how Tolkien viewed a major Elf-king).

Indeed, unless we are TOLD that an Elf or Man was cleanshaven, we have no necessary reason to assume so...

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Morwen

Which characters exactly? The bearded characters that immediately come to my mind are dwarves and Cirdan. Well I suppose dwarves are characters of "less stature" but who are the bearded characters of "less nobility" and "mixed blood"?

Well I did say that I couldn't explain it for charactes such as Cirdan and Gandalf. The characters of "less nobility" and "mixed blood" I was referring to was the common man, the people without Numenorean blood or Elvish blood.

[ninja91]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

Well I did say that I couldn't explain it for charactes such as Cirdan and Gandalf.

Well, Gandalf is ancient, and it is fitting for him to have a beard. I dont think that in his case there is a question of nobility. The beard just enhances his character as he smokes his pipe or thoughtfully strokes his... beard.

[Morwen]

Well I did say that I couldn't explain it for charactes such as Cirdan and Gandalf. The characters of "less nobility" and "mixed blood" I was referring to was the common man, the people without Numenorean blood or Elvish blood.

But were Numenoreans beardless? I don't recall if Tolkien actually says that they were. He does make such a specific comment about Hobbits IIRC in The Hobbit, An Unexpected Party (though in the Prologue to LotR he only specfically says that the Harfoots are beardless). Unless there is a similar statement about the Numenoreans (and I do not say that there is not), why should we assume that as a race they were beardless?

That aside, there are number of very different characters described as having beards:Cirdan, Gandalf, Saruman, Theoden, Ghan-buri-Ghan (who is described as having a "scanty beard straggled on his lumpy chin as dry moss"), Beorn. I therefore don't think of beards as something Tolkien assigned to characters to indicate a lack of nobility; but that he simply visualised certain characters as bearded.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Morwen

But were Numenoreans beardless? I don't recall if Tolkien actually says that they were. He does make such a specific comment about Hobbits IIRC in The Hobbit, An Unexpected Party (though in the Prologue to LotR he only specfically says that the Harfoots are beardless). Unless there is a similar statement about the Numenoreans (and I do not say that there is not), why should we assume that as a race they were beardless?

That aside, there are number of very different characters described as having beards:Cirdan, Gandalf, Saruman, Theoden, Ghan-buri-Ghan (who is described as having a "scanty beard straggled on his lumpy chin as dry moss"), Beorn. I therefore don't think of beards as something Tolkien assigned to characters to indicate a lack of nobility; but that he simply visualised certain characters as bearded.

That makes sense. I don't know for sure that there is a quote saying Numenoreans were beardless, but I recall so many people saying it. Does anybody have this quote?!?!