Christopher Tolkien to finish lost Middle Earth novel

[Maédhros]

It's funny...prior to reading I heard many people expressing their wishes that the other Great Tales receive the "CoH" treatment but I just shrugged it off because I knew they weren't nearly as far along. But now I almost finding myself thinking, "Please, Chris...anything you can scrape together!"

It is funny, but in this Board, there is a Project that indeed have done that with the Tales of the Children of Húrin, Beren and Lúthien and the Fall of Gondolin. IMO (biased of course) the work that Findegil did in the creation of the text of the CoH, has way more detail that the work that has been published by the Estate, (even thought I don't have the book and haven't read it) since it includes parts of the Lay of Leithian.
And the Fall of Gondolin, wow, that is very nice indeed.

[littlemanpoet]

I think that Christopher has tied his own creative hands far too much. There are glaring examples of this in Turin.

[davem]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I think that Christopher has tied his own creative hands far too much. There are glaring examples of this in Turin.

There are - & I'm sure that it would have benefitted from the inclusion of elements from the Lay. However, in some ways that would have worked against his purpose - which was making his father's work available, rather than just making the story available in the best possible form.

Of course, you are right about it being one of the great tragedies of Tolkien's creative life that he got distracted into writing those 'lesser' (but still fascinating) works. Christopher has given us a glimpse of what might have been. CoH works, but its pretty clearly not what Tolkien would have given us had he managed to complete it to his satisfaction. I wonder if his reputation among the 'literati' would have been different had the First Age Trilogy been published.

Its incredibly sad that the other tales will languish mostly unread in a fuller form - well, tbh, in any form, given that most casual fans don't even attempt the Sil, let alone UT & HoM-e.

I wonder why Tolkien chose the path he took - can't help wondering how much influence his correspondents had in the post LotR period, with their constant questioning of the works theological credentials, or their pointing up of 'similarities' with Christianity. I can't help feeling that Tolkien the amateur theologian/philosopher took that path too eagerly, & that we lost probably his greatest work for that very reason.

[Child of the 7th Age]

I wonder why Tolkien chose the path he took - can't help wondering how much influence his correspondents had in the post LotR period, with their constant questioning of the works theological credentials, or their pointing up of 'similarities' with Christianity. I can't help feeling that Tolkien the amateur theologian/philosopher took that path too eagerly, & that we lost probably his greatest work for that very reason.

Yes, that is possible. Tolkien was deluged with questions in his final years and many of these (though far from all) touched upon "religious and philosophical" issues. While something like that could constitute a "distraction", I still think there is a great deal more going on than that.

The question that I keep asking is whether Tolkien still had the same ability to create when he was older that he did when he was middle aged. When he was younger Tolkien had enormous pressures on his head.....the need to produce as an academic, the money required to pay off piles of hospital bills, the time to be a good father. Despite all this, those were the most productive years of his life.

Once the money from Rings started coming in and his children grew up, some of those pressures were reduced. That was even more so in retirement when he found himself with time on his hands. Theoretically, with that huge chunk of extra time, he could have found the hours to put at least a few of his major stories into shape as well as producing something like the Athrabeth. The more basic question is this: did he still possess the star that gave him entry to faerie, or did he feel that it had slipped away? There are some authors who have that ability right up to the moment they die. Many stop writing completely, and still others continue to write but what they write lacks that inner magic that makes stories come alive . I would honestly put Tolkien in the latter category. I find Tolkien's later writings interesting for their ideas, but I do not warm to them the way I do to the magical stories of his younger years.

I don't think this was just a lack of time, answering peoples' letters about why the characters did, responding to fans' personal questions, or even getting "fixated" on religion, though all those could have played some part. (Indeed, I think an argument can be made that it was PJ's movies that gave rise to such a fascination with Tolkien's religious roots.) Many of those same letters raised questions about the First and Second Age so that they actually could have been an impetus for Tolkien to turn again to his source material and begin to write anew. Sadly he did not.

I there are two reasons for this. First, Tolkien seemed unable to pick out one story and focus on that alone. He was always jumping from one aspect of the Legendarium to another. He was so in love with Middle-earth as a whole that he couldn't focus on one part of it to the exclusion of all others. If only he had done that... If only we had a complete Tale of Gondolin, or Beren and Luthien. I think we would all trade in the later writings for that. I do feel that the process of aging separated Tolkien from faerie. Aging does change people. I have watched this happen in myself and in parents and friends. It can be painful to see. Yet this is the doom of Man, and I do not think the older Tolkien was capable of producing the same magic that the younger one did.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

I there are two reasons for this. First, Tolkien seemed unable to pick out one story and focus on that alone. He was always jumping from one aspect of the Legendarium to another. He was so in love with Middle-earth as a whole that he couldn't focus on one part of it to the exclusion of all others. If only he had done that... If only we had a complete Tale of Gondolin, or Beren and Luthien. I think we would all trade in the later writings for that. I do feel that the process of aging separated Tolkien from faerie.

Well, CT did state in an interview that in his opinion the reason his father failed to complete The Sil ws simply because he was 'too tired'. Whether he had also 'lost his fay star' is another question - in the post LotR period he began to re-write Tuor & the Fall of Gondolin, the Narn & a great deal of other M-e related stuff - not to mention Smith. Of course, he never completed Tuor, never began Beren & Luthien, & what he did finish was a lot of shorter pieces. Its entirely possible that he felt that he could never surpass LotR - consider the time & effort he put in to that. I suppose that after that he may have simply felt daunted by the thought of beginning another epic retelling.

What he did was turn to 'explaining' aspects of his secondary world. And while that added 'depth' to the creation, & produced some fascinating stuff (as well, let's admit, some of his most beautiful prose) it was not 'necessary' - Osanwe Kenta, for instance, is a very clever piece, & is clearly the result of some serious thought on M-e metaphysics, but is it actually 'necessary'. Same with the essay on the Palantiri - very clever, quite interesting in itself, but in the end what's he's actually doing in these pieces & other like them is replacing 'magic' with 'science'. All part of the process which reaches its zenith (or should that be nadir?) in the dead end of 'Myths Transformed'.

So, in the end, I think Child has a point. Of course, he knew the stories, & so could have set them down, but perhaps the vision, the inner fire, had gone. He could only re-write & touch up what he already had. Perhaps the choice was not either The Three Great Tales or The Athrabeth, Osanwe Kenta, Laws & Customs etc, but rather The Three Great Tales or LotR - by which I mean perhaps if he hadn't channelled his energies into LotR during the forties he'd have used them to complete the Sil & write the First Age trilogy.

[HerenIstarion]

If only he had done that... If only we had a complete Tale of Gondolin, or Beren and Luthien. I think we would all trade in the later writings for that

If only - many times I wished we would have had it in full, with all things explained to the last word of it.

And yet the very incompleteness (in a sense - it is not finished with as in Leaf by Niggle) is what makes the whole world more attractive [to me] - it is elusive glimpses that hint at something beyond I [probably] will never know of that brings me back. I would dearly love to see the tree, but having only a leaf, I have the leaf in higher esteem than I would have it would the whole tree be there for me to see.

My apologies if I repeat things already said or my answer is lopsided - for the fear of spoilers (since I won't have the book till late summer) I'm not reading the thread. Just could not stand temptation of peeping into it, and Child's sentence as provided in davem's quoting just caught my eye

[littlemanpoet]

I would have to disagree, Child. I to this day consider Smith of Wootton Major and his Beorthnoth poem, both late, very accomplished effective considering what he was trying to do with them. I think his biggest problem was depression. Plain and simple. And mostly unresolved. Feats unaccomplished were his doom, and they are in themselves cause for depression. People in the throes of depression often say they are "too tired". Consider his tendency to play endless rounds of Patience, wasting his time on something frankly vain except that it gave him minor accomplishment for "getting at least something done", and even winning often enough. It seems like it was a drug/tranquilizer that he needed to fend off the despondency of so much unfinished.

Maybe there's a chance that the Tolkien estate will, some far generation from now, open up the Legendarium to be recreated by some capable hand or hands. Who knows?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by davem

Whether he had also 'lost his fay star' is another question

I would surely like to find the child that has eaten that bit of cake, if you take my meaning.

And by way of response to Aiwendil's post, above, it does seem like CT's edited Children of Hurin book, that I have now finished reading, ends abuptly and should not. I was expecting Húrin to appear at Menegroth and it just didn't happen. Quite unsatisfactory.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

But there was no way to have Hurin appear at Menegroth without 'editorial invention:' Tolkien pere never wrote it.

Moreover, the Narn i Hin Hurin clearly and explicitly ends with Turin's death. The Wanderings of Hurin isn't part of it, never was part of it, was never intended to be part of it. It was an abortive beginning to "The Necklace of the Dwarves."

Davem is quite right that sometimes T appears to regard Turin and Nauglamir as a single bipartite tale- but the Narn of Dirhavel stops when Turin commits seppuku.