Christopher Tolkien to finish lost Middle Earth novel

[Maglor]

You guys have been talking about the "epilogue"...

Right now, I'm not quite sure how I feel about it. I do feel that it was vital to bring the story "full circle" by informing the audience of Hurin's release and including the Morwen's poignant death sequence. But the final pages as presented I felt left a little to be desired. I didn't mind the last sequence itself; it worked well, I think. What's problematic is how we "jump" to Brethil immediately after his release with the following set-up:

"After the deaths of Turin and Nienor Morgoth released Hurin from his bondage in furtherance of his evil purpose. In the course of his wanderings, he reached the Forest of Brethil..."

Then Hurin reaches the stone. I understand that including the Wanderings poses too many problems, but I would've liked something--just a line or two even--in between to explain Hurin's mental state after release and emphasize that he had "seen" the events unfold already from atop Angband (which is merely alluded to when Hurin didn't look at the stone because he "knew what was written there").

[Maédhros]

This is totally unrealated to the subject at hand but, instead of having this:
From the Published Silmarillion: Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin

And at the last by the power that Ulmo set upon them they came to the hidden door of Gondolin, and passing down the tunnel they reached the inner gate, and were taken by the guard as prisoners. Then they were led up the mighty ravine of Orfalch Echor, barred by seven gates, and brought before Ecthelion of the Fountain, the warden of the great gate at the end of the climbing road; and there Tuor cast aside his cloak, and from the arms that he bore from Vinyamar it was seen that he was in truth one sent by Ulmo. Then Tuor looked down upon the fair vale of Tumladen, set as a green jewel amid the encircling hills; and he saw far off upon the rocky height of Amon Gwareth Gondolin the great, city of seven names, whose fame and glory is mightiest in song of all dwellings of the Elves in the Hither Lands. At the bidding of Ecthelion trumpets were blown on the towers of the great gate, and they echoed in the hills; and far off but clear there came a sound of answering trumpets blown upon the white walls of the city, flushed with the rose of dawn upon the plain.

I would rather have something like this available to the reader:

Behold, the armed guardians of the gate pressed back the thronging folk that gathered about the wanderers, and one among them spake saying: ‘This is a city of watch and ward, Gondolin on Amon Gwared, where all may be free who are of true heart, but none may be free to enter unknown. Tell me then your names.’ But Voronwë named himself come hither by the will of Ulmo as guide to this son of Men; and Tuor said: ‘I am Tuor son of Huor son of Galdor of the House of Hador of the sons of the Men of the North who live far hence, and I fare hither by the will of Ulmo of the Outer Oceans.’
Then all who listened grew silent, and his deep and rolling voice held them in amaze, for their own voices were fair as the plash of fountains. Then a saying arose among them: ‘Lead him before the king.’
Then did the throng return within the gates and the wanderers with them, and Tuor saw they were of steel and of great height and strength. Now the streets of Gondolin were paved with stone and wide, kerbed with marble, and fair houses and courts amid gardens of bright flowers mounds of mallorns, birches, and evergreen trees were set about the ways, and many towers of great slenderness and beauty builded of white marble and carved most marvellously rose to the heaven. Squares there were lit with fountains and the home of birds that sang amid the branches of their aged trees, but of all these the greatest was that place where stood the King’s house, and the tower thereof on a pillared arcade was the loftiest in the city, and above it flew the banner of Fingolfin and the fountains that played before the doors shot twenty fathoms and seven in the air and fell in a singing rain of crystal: therein did the sun glitter splendidly by day, and the moon most magically shimmered by night. The birds that dwelt there were of the whiteness of snow and their voices sweeter than a lullaby of music.
On either side of the doors of the palace were the gilded images of two trees, one of gold and the other of silver, and they were in the likeness of the glorious Trees of Valinor that lit those places before Morgoth and Ungoliant withered them: and those trees the Gondolindrim named Glingal and Belthil.
Then Turgon King of Gondolin robed in white with a belt of gold, tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol and a coronet of garnets was upon his head, and at his side a white and gold sword in a ruel-bone sheath stood before his doors and spake from the head of the white stairs that led thereto. ‘Welcome, O Man of the Land of Shadows. Lo! thy coming was foretold by Ulmo, saying that beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men whenso thou faredst hither.’ And upon the King's right hand there stood Maeglin his sister-son, but upon his left hand sat Idril Celebrindal his daughter and at the sight of her Tuor marvelled, for he had known or even seen few women in his life.

If that requires editorial addtions by CT so be it. To me it would be worth reading it.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I can see ending the tale with Turin's death; it's the Hurin/Morwen ending that seems wrong. What really seems especially wrong is how Morgoth's freeing of Hurin is simply told in an overly discursive style rather than shown.

Were it up to me (and of course it wasn't), I would have solved the problem in a manner not dissimilar to the published Silmarillion: quote the Wanderings of Hurin, complete, as far as Morwen's death. This brings in Hurin's failed attempt at Gondolin, and the irony that this attempt largely fulfills Morgoth's goal- the driving impetus of the narrative.

Whether to follow Morwen's death with anything is a different question. One might add the "cast himself into the sea" legend, skipping silently the whole Brethil/Nargothrond/Doriath business.

[Maglor]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Were it up to me (and of course it wasn't), I would have solved the problem in a manner not dissimilar to the published Silmarillion: quote the Wanderings of Hurin, complete, as far as Morwen's death. This brings in Hurin's failed attempt at Gondolin, and the irony that this attempt largely fulfills Morgoth's goal- the driving impetus of the narrative. Whether to follow Morwen's death with anything is a different question. One might add the "cast himself into the sea" legend, skipping silently the whole Brethil/Nargothrond/Doriath business.

I'd have really liked to see this, actually. Include Hurin's attempt to enter Gondolin because not only does it poetically contrast the story's beginning (his stay there Huor), but, as you said, reveals Morgoth's "evil purpose" that is only vaguely mentioned in the epilogue. This is what I felt was missing--we couldn't perceive that Hurin was being manipulated and in a compromised state after his release.

Then have Morwen's death, then have Hurin casting himself into the sea...skip the whole Nargothrond/Doriath bit, it's too much to mess with for the purpose of bringing this particular tale full-circle.

[davem]

http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/...ts_figures.php

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Excellent information, thanks davem!

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Maédhros

If that requires editorial addtions by CT so be it. To me it would be worth reading it.

Personally, I disagree - less is sometimes more. And given that so many people are almost hysterically eager to condemn CT (something I find baffling), I am not surprised if he has taken a minimalist approach.

[Maédhros]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Personally, I disagree - less is sometimes more. And given that so many people are almost hysterically eager to condemn CT (something I find baffling), I am not surprised if he has taken a minimalist approach.

I don't think that makes much sense. You are going to get criticized no matter what. Look at this:

Exactly. We're talking about the BOOK Children Of Hurin, not the story Children Of Hurin. When I first read it I had no idea about Earendil or Mandos' prophecy and it made for very grim reading.

How many people are there who have not read the Published Silmarillion, such as he/she. The story of the Fall of Gondolin is in itself a thing of beauty. Good thing that he didn't feel that way when he published the Silmarillion, I wonder if people thought that less is more. Not for me at least.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Maédhros

I don't think that makes much sense. You are going to get criticized no matter what. Look at this:

How many people are there who have not read the Published Silmarillion, such as he/she. The story of the Fall of Gondolin is in itself a thing of beauty. Good thing that he didn't feel that way when he published the Silmarillion, I wonder if people thought that less is more. Not for me at least.

I was partly referring to prose style. The alternative you provided I found indigestible, even as a devotee of the King James Bible - there are only so many "hithers" one passage can take....

[davem]

http://entertainment.timesonline.co....cle1742663.ece

[Maédhros]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I was partly referring to prose style. The alternative you provided I found indigestible, even as a devotee of the King James Bible - there are only so many "hithers" one passage can take....

I guess that you are not a fan of Tolkien's Lost Tales.
There is a difference in the prose style of the Later Tuor from 1951 and the story in The Fall of Gondolin from 1916-17. (Tuor and the Exiles of Gondolin )
From Unfinished Tales: Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin

The tale of Tuor and the Exiles of Gondolin (as "The Fall of Gondolin" is entitled in the early MSS) remained untouched for many years, though my father at some stage, probably between 1926 and 1930, wrote a brief, compressed version of the story to stand as part of The Silmarillion (a title which, incidentally, first appeared in his letter to The Observer of 20 February 1938); and this was changed subsequently to bring it into harmony with altered conceptions in other parts of the book. Much later he began work on an entirely refashioned account, entitled "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin." It seems very likely that this was written in 1951, when The Lord of the Rings was finished but its publication doubtful. Deeply changed in style and bearings, yet retaining many of the essentials of the story written in his youth, "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin" would have given in fine detail the which legend that constitutes the brief 23rd chapter of the published Silmarillion, but, grievously, he went no further than the coming of Tuor and Voronwë to the last gate and Tuor's sight of Gondolin across the plain of Tumladen. To his reasons for abandoning it there is no clue.

It is thus the remarkable fact that the only full account that my father ever wrote of the story of Tuor's sojourn in Gondolin, his union with Idril Celebrindal, the birth of Eärendil, the treachery of Maeglin, the sack of the city, and the escape of the fugitives – a story that was a central element in his imagination of the First Age – was the narrative composed in his youth. There is no question, however, that that (most remarkable) narrative is not suitable for inclusion in this book. It is written in the extreme archaistic style that my father employed at that time, and it inevitably embodies conceptions out of keeping with the world of The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion in its published form. It belongs with the rest of the earliest phase of the mythology, "the Book of Lost Tales": itself a very substantial work, of the utmost interest to one concerned with the origins of Middle-earth, but requiring to be presented in a lengthy and complex study if at all.

The problem of putting the two texts together as CT points out is that the earlier version has an archaic style, with respect to the Later Tuor account in Unfinished Tales. The point is that: Is the composition of a full "readable" text of the Tale of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin up to the escape of the fugitives, to be published as a separte work, such as the CoH, regardless with more editorial alterations because of the archaic elements in the earlier tale (and to have a single style prose style of Later Tuor), would that not better than not at all? How many people will not ever know of this story, such as the CoH, if CT had not published it this year? To me, the positives far outweight the negatives, even though this is a moot point because CT probably will never do it.

[davem]

http://www.economist.com/displaystor..._JDPPPSD&ppv=1

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Maédhros

I guess that you are not a fan of Tolkien's Lost Tales.
There is a difference in the prose style of the Later Tuor from 1951 and the story in The Fall of Gondolin from 1916-17. (Tuor and the Exiles of Gondolin )
From Unfinished Tales: Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin

I am afraid that I was defeated by the Lost Tales when I bought them when they were first released in paperback - my first four volumes of HOME are from the first paperback release, the rest from the 2002 reissue... it perhaps wasn't the best time since I started my degree with a 60 volume reading list and the realisation that outside linguistics class Tolkien was not approved of. I do hope to have another go but while I have read most of most of the later volumes I haven't quite plucked up the courage to reopen Lost Tales.

I adore UT though - my favourite volume of Tolkien on the whole.

Don't get me wrong, I am so glad that HoME has made so much available, and the prospect of finding out more about Idril (surely Tolkien's most admirable female character ) is a big incentive to have another go with LT, but I have to say I think CT's judgement was sound.

Not a fan hmm.... I cannot answer accurately yes or no . Many of the phrases are lovely in isolation but on top of each other .... well it is the difference between a long G&T and swigging Gordon's from the bottle a la Hogarth - one is a delightful prospect the other horrific - so does that make me a fan of gin or not?