Where did Hobbits come from?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morwen

Off topic question - what does Tolkien actually say about Giants? They are mentioned once in "The Hobbit" but does he mention them elsewhere?

Off-topic answer: try here, here or here (in the first one I recommend skipping the first few posts and scrolling down to about half the thread, there starts the main debate of whether there are Giants mentioned anywhere in general).

[sarathy]

Hobbits are similar to man except that they are shorter in strature and have funny ears.

They can even be called as humanoids.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Sometimes Tolkien tells us as much by what he didn't say as by what he actually said. I think this is one of those instances. It's extremely important for Middle-earth that hobbits be an inobtrusive people that have never caught the attention of the mighty, particularly Morgoth or Sauron. If that had been the case....if their history had been documented in some kind of human or elven annals, Sauron would have had a head start in tracking down the Ring.

It is this historical obscurity that protects Bilbo and Frodo for many years. Only when Gollum spills the beans is there a rent in the veil, and Frodo must flee. Even then, Sauron has no idea how resilient Hobbits are. He underestimates them because they look so well contented and cheerful on the outside, even soft, at least when compared with men and elves. This too is a kind of protection for the Ringbearers, since Sauron wakes to his peril only very slowly.

To me, the most interesting question is not the "what" of hobbit origins but the "why". Why didn't they attract any attention for much of Arda's history? Tolkien simply left us no information beyond their presence near Mirkwood in the mid-third age. But, as has been noted by Morwen, there's indication they'd been around even longer without anyone noticing.

I can't believe hobbits sprang up out of nowhere in the middle of the Third Age. That sort of magical origin doesn't go along with anything else in the Legendarium. Could they have gradually evolved from humanoid stock, becoming smaller and smaller and developing their own culture? That's possible by the standards of our world, but there would have to be a gradual change or shift over a very long time. Yet when we first see them near Mirkwood, they already have their own distinct culture and unique physical attributes. There had to have been a lot going on before the middle of the Third Age. The hobbits would have had to shrink in size, become largely beardless with hair on their feet, and, even more significantly, develop three subgroups within the race (Stoor, Harfoot, Fallohide) that each had their unique societal characteristics and close ties with one particular race....men, elves or dwarves, depending on the subgroup. That sort of differentiation doesn't happen overnight.

If we can accept that hobbits were around long before the mid-third Age, we have to sk why they weren't noticed. Tolkien gives one brief answer: it's merely a matter of historical recordkeeping, or lack of it:

The beginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days that are now lost and forgotten. Only Elves still preserved any records of that vanished time, and their traditions are concerned almost entirely with their own history, in which Men appear seldom and Hobbits are not mentioned at all. Yet it is clear that Hobbits had, in fact, lived quietly in Middle-earthfor many long years before other folkbecame even aware of them. And the world being full of strange creatures beyond count, these little people seemed of very little importance.

There is real truth in the statement in italics, but I find hard to buy this as the whole story. Tolkien loves to give explanation like this, minimizing the significance of something by use of passive verbs, offhand comment, or even silence, when the real answer is one that is more significant, perhaps so significant that it can't be spelled out in concrete words. Were "Men"really so "rare" in the Legendarium? The Silm and HoMe discuss different houses of men and dwarves, including a race of dwarves that included just three remaining representatives (petty dwarves). There are clear allusions to men having experienced some darkness in their past. Why nothing about hobbits and how they fit into this? Isn't it at least possible that their presence was hidden from the eye of the world by something that was spelled out in the original music.....that there was a veil of protection over their culture because they had to be hidden for later purposes.

Tolkien may not have had this idea in the beginning when he told hobbit tales to his children, but hints of it are there in UT.....the idea that Gandalf purposely chooses Bilbo at the behest of someone/something because the race of hobbits had certain unique attrbutes. Only hobbits will be able to get to Mount Doom without falling under the spell of the Ring. There's no detailed proof, but if you read UT you get the distinct feeling that the choice of a hobbit wasn't just a whim on Gandalf's part. Someone else was involved in that choice. How far back that choice went, whether it could even have gone back to the dawn of Arda, simply isn't addressed. But all people have a history, whether or not they or anyone else remembers.

[Bêthberry]

Child, your thoughtfulness has put to shame my rather flippant suggestion of the Great Eagles bringing the Stoor, Fallohide and Harfoot babies to the cabbage, turnip and beet patches. I had rather enjoyed that idea as it was in keeping with old folk tales. And I was so careful to avoid cauliflower, as les petits choux would have been too French for The Professor.

Your idea of a chosen tribe deliberately veiled is very suggestive and powerful. It, too, has tantalizing similarities to other mythologies (I use that word to avoid the "R" word with Tolkien).

However, there is one association which immediately springs to mind. If the hobbits do represent the wholesomeness of the sturdy English country stock, how does this idea fit in with that dodgy old idea of Pax Britannica and all the colonial apparatus that comes with the British Empire? Of course, I realise that this brings into juxtaposition two ideas that are not necessarily carved in stone, but it does make one wonder: Would Tolkien have wanted to inspire the idea that the English were the (new/next) chosen race?

This isn't so far fetched as it might seem at first glance, as the conceit is prevalent throughout English history. Time limits me giving sources, etc, but Child's post was so suggestive that I couldn't not post!

[Gothbogg the Ripper]

First came the River Folk and from them came the more conventional Hobbit. I imagine that they were originally much like the Stoors but moved to land where they developed different characteristics and - of course - the hatred of boating.

[Lord Halsar]

I have a theory on the matter.
Perhaps hobbits came from the far east aswell. perhaps they were a shorter variety of men that decided to stay at the Mouths of Anduin until the Third Age when the Breelanders gave them the Shire.
Just a theory, nothing much.

[The Might]

It wasn't the Breelanders that gave them the Shire, it was Argeleb II, tenth King of Arthedain, that allowed two Hobbits from Bree, Marcho and Blanco to settle in the Shire, on the condition that they [font=Verdana][size=-1]acknowledge his rule, speed his messengers, and repair the roads and bridges. They then lead a large group of Hobbits westward and claimed the area that later became The Shire.
I like Child's idea, makes sense that Hobbits somehow adapted and became smaller. It could be that it's because of their ability to hide so well, which is again mentioned in the foreword to LotR, Of Hobbits, that they managed to stay away from the darkness. It is clear that are much closer to nature as normal Men, maybe because of the need to hide and seek protection in their natural environment.
It makes sense that they slowly made their way west as Sauron fled east to rebuild his physical form after losing the Ring. This they did again, in T.A. 1050 when some of the Hobbits crossed the Misty Mountains after Sauron came to Dol Guldur and a shadow fell upon Mirkwood.
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[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

However, there is one association which immediately springs to mind. If the hobbits do represent the wholesomeness of the sturdy English country stock, how does this idea fit in with that dodgy old idea of Pax Britannica and all the colonial apparatus that comes with the British Empire? Of course, I realise that this brings into juxtaposition two ideas that are not necessarily carved in stone, but it does make one wonder: Would Tolkien have wanted to inspire the idea that the English were the (new/next) chosen race?

A very intriguing line of thought, Beth. We know that Tolkien was intensely patriotic as an Englishman, but had no use at all for the Empire. Even as a teenager he supported Irish Home Rule and concluded that the Boer War was wrong. He also dcried the prospect of a World Language, even his beloved English. He was, in the most positive sense, a multiculturalist.

I think if the old Professor were presented with your notion, he would have adjusted it some. To him the Hobbits were important because they were humble, the meek not inheriting the earth but saving it. Conceivably he might accept the association of humility + caritas with (true) Christianity, which has often been called the "new Israel." But I doubt he would have regarded the Hobbits as parallelling the Jews in any historical way.

[Morwen]

If we can accept that hobbits were around long before the mid-third Age, we have to sk why they weren't noticed. Tolkien gives one brief answer: it's merely a matter of historical recordkeeping, or lack of it:

Quote:
The beginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days that are now lost and forgotten. Only Elves still preserved any records of that vanished time, and their traditions are concerned almost entirely with their own history, in which Men appear seldom and Hobbits are not mentioned at all. Yet it is clear that Hobbits had, in fact, lived quietly in Middle-earthfor many long years before other folkbecame even aware of them. And the world being full of strange creatures beyond count, these little people seemed of very little importance.

One reason that hobbits may not have much of a presence in the recorded history of Elves or the oral history of other peoples is that, for others, they apparently never did anything worth mentioning. Theoden says as much to Merry when they first meet.

Merry bowed....."I have wandered in many lands, since I left my home, and never till now have I found people that knew any story concerning hobbits.

"My people came out of the North long ago," said Theoden. "But I will not deceive you: we know no tales about hobbits. All that is said among us is that far away, over many hills and rivers, live the halfling folk that dwell in holes in sand-dunes. But there are no legends of their deeds, for it is said that they do little, and avoid the sight of men, being able to vanish in a twinkling...."

TT, The Road to Isengard

Haldir of the Galadhrim has also heard of hobbits. However, his people have not heard of them "for many a long year, and did not know that any yet dwelt in Middle Earth" (FotR, Lothlorien)

So hobbits, for others in Middle Earth who might once have known about them, have dropped out of existence and even while they were still to be observed they were not doing anything worth remembering or writing about.

But what I would like to know is why hobbits don't appear to have any information/legends/tales about their own origins. Merry at one point, in response to a remark from Treebeard, observes that they never seem to be mentioned in any of the old tales. This would have been a good place for him to say what old tales Hobbits have about themselves and their origins, but he doesn't do so.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morwen

But what I would like to know is why hobbits don't appear to have any information/legends/tales about their own origins. Merry at one point, in response to a remark from Treebeard, observes that they never seem to be mentioned in any of the old tales. This would have been a good place for him to say what old tales Hobbits have about themselves and their origins, but he doesn't do so.

Which almost forces one to ask, what would be the Hobbits' status if we take in account the Athrabeth... the Hobbits, as it was agreed on, and mentioned even in the Appendicies and foreword to LotR, are basically Men...