WW XXXIII - Other Minds and Hands

[Kath]

do anyoneyou make up types have tweezers?

Ah, I think, yes Mith! Here we are. Though I wonder, Galadriel as a bearded lady? Could be interesting.

So you would rather turn Day Two into a flurry of arguments?

No. By Day 2 we will have voting records, a Night's kill and all the information from toDay to study. Arguments on Day 2 generally focus on individuals rather than ideas. But I changed my mind anyway so never mind!

But enough of that, it's toDay we have to focus on right now. So:

Shasta - told us he (?) wouldn't be around much so haven't exactly got any ideas about him (?).

Ang - has been having fun with his character, but there's nothing sinister in that. I do wonder why he pointed out the possible existence of extra roles, as this was something we all knew might happen from the admin thread and then from the narration. Trying to be helpful or just trying to make his post longer perhaps. It is also odd that he would point out wolvish tactics, as that is something that often brings suspicion. If anything he is acting like he would expect a not-quite-so-experienced wolf to act. A ruse perhaps, but in which direction I don't yet know.

Volo - um, I don't actually entirely understand his first post but he has since returned to say that he thinks Mith, Lommy, Legate and Aganzir seem innocent though there aren't really reasons for any of that. Is 'afraid' of Mac and Ang because of their tones but doesn't want to say anything until he has some actual facts. Bit hedging your bets there. I hope we see something a bit more concrete before Day ends.

Aganzir - mentions Sixth jumping on Sauce's joking accusation of Ang and says she doesn't like the tone of Legate's posts either. There are some good bits of reasoning behind both ideas, and there is a promise of returning later, so I'm quite comfortable with Aganzir at the moment.

Mith - there are some words of wisdom scattered within the banter, especially those about the voting. Double-lynches. *shudders* With so many wolves those really could be bad for us at the beginning. Her 'silence is not golden' point was a good one too. Plus, what she is saying in silliness is making me laugh out loud! It may just be the endorphins from happiness but I'm putting Mith in the innocent pile toDay.

Legate - his first post was all about the roles that haven't been explicitly stated, and there seemed to be a call for all to reveal, a dangerous move so early in the game. We've also seen nothing but banter and some defense about his previous statements, so I'm not too keen on him right now.

xyzzy - we've had only the one post from him and it was entirely banter. Hopefully we'll see more of him before the end of the Day.

Gil - mentions his hatred of Day 1 which may be why we've seen nothing from him since that first post. I can only hope he doesn't just pop in with a vote with no reasoning and then disappear again. After the last game I have expectations!

Rune - a sudden burst of annoyance at Mac over the banter thing has made it appear that he is talking with susbstance, but in fact apart from a mention that Mac was trying to stir things up he really hasn't said anything at all. One to watch out for I think.

Di - votes for Gil, for no real reason I think, but she did have to go early. It's hardly an excuse but then with how few people had spoken at the time she didn't have much to go on. No condemnation for that.

Sauce - seemed unimpressed by events so far and made some joking comments about various people. Then thought Legate odd (which I agree with) and made a comment about the possibility of Lovers (which I really hope aren't around), both of which were good points and had some evidence to back them up. Mentions some suspicion of Sixth for jumping on his joking accusation of Ang and then votes for him. Everything seems quite above board here, and the food isn't half bad, I'm keeping Sauce as innocent.

Brinniel - we've only had one post from her toDay and it had nothing of any substance in it. Again we'll have to hope she turns up later with something to say.

Boro - voted for himself, apparently to try and get people talking, but when found that didn't work he retracted his vote and voted for Ang 'for no real reason'. Now, having exonerated Di for doing the same thing I can hardly jump on Boro for it either. However, it feels more forced than Di's vote did. I know that's terrible reasoning, but how can you explain a feeling?

Sixth - mentions that Ang looks suspicious, and then says this idea was backed up by Sauce. Though Sauce's accusation was just banter it seems that he took it seriously, but then Sixth also thinks Sauce looks suspicious. Mm, I can see why people are voting for him, but I think I want to give him the benefit of the doubt for toDay at least. There is definitely some miscommunication going on.

Lommy - worried that people such as Ang, Mith and Legate have been spending their time chatting about nothing rather than trying to come up with anything constructive which is a fair point, and finds a comment from Ang that makes her worried about him. Also mentions Sixth and his 'jumping' on Sauce's accusation of Ang. Then thinks Mac is being odd in lumping Ang, Mith and Legate together with Rune, Brinn and Gil, when the former three had actually managed to get something constructive into their posts when the latter three had not. This is a very good point, and it seems odd that Mac would do such a thing. Votes for Sixth in the end because he was the only one that had really caught her attention. Well, she has made about the most posts so far, has come up with some very good points and has spoken with substance rather than just banter, and she seems to be acting like 'normal', so I'm going to put her down as innocent.

Mac - thinks Legate looks odd, picks up on a point from me and agrees with Lommy and Sauce about Sixth. I agree with the first point and I've responded to the second at the top of this post. As for that third comment. Sixth has been accused because he 'jumped' on Sauce's accusation. Well what is everyone doing now but 'jumping' on this accusation of Sixth! I don't know, it feels like a bandwagon in the making without anything substantial behind it. Says Rune is being overly defensive, which indeed he did seem to be. Defends himself against Lommy but not very effectively as his argument seems to be 'oh did I do that? silly old me, but don't worry, there was a reason'. Still suspects Legate and Sixth but we've not had a vote yet. Something odd about this one.

Well I think that's everyone. I forgot how long those things take. Where's spawn when you need her? Oh, wait, Durelin is missing! Hope she gets here before the deadline. Now, let's see.

Innocent:
Aganzir
Mith
Di
Sauce
Lommy
Kath

Guilty:
Ang
Legate
Rune
Boro
Mac

No idea:
Shasta
Gil
Brinniel
xyzzy
Durelin
Volo
Sixth

These are (obviously) very rough lists which aren't in order, but it's just to help me work out what I'm thinking. I'll have to vote relatively soon as I won't be here at the deadline. In fact, I'm going to vote now.

++ RUNE

I'd dearly love to vote Mac, but I want to see what else he has to say for himself first and I won't be able to before the end of the Day, so Rune it is.

[Anguirel]

Righty-ho...how about this

++VOLO

Wishy-washy, non-commital, unconvincing and dodgy. That a harsh enough tone for you, fella-me-lad...?

[Anguirel]

I think Saruman's innocent, slightly annoyingly as if we don't hang him we'll have to endure his insufferable tongue and proto-industrialism for the next fortnight. Nevertheless, that last, magnificent Philippic of a post struck me as bearing all the marks of that deadliest of animals, The Innocent With A Beloved Theory!

Certainly that tirade helps to convince me I did rightly in avoiding voting for him, despite considerable provocation. Besides there's something of a consensus building against him, I now see, which I don't much like the look of.

[Mithalwen]

I have just lost my post gah ... no time but I am here and need to do one of my lists ...

[Volo]

We might have different meanings for the word "harsh", but I do completely agree with Legate, about your, Ang, half-in-half-out-character talk being annoying and easily changed by yourself. If you are a wolf, I suggest you quit it. If you are an innocent, I suggest you quit it. This will always put you into a guilty light, whatever the case.

I'm sure thing going to vote you now. Though you're probably innocent. Your accusation came so out of nowhere. My first post was PURE in-character stuff, without ANY useful content. My second post was pretty much my thoughts as they are. Why no more than that? For the simple reason that I didn't have anything else to say. Are you expecting me to have great analysis for the talk here? You yourself don't have much stuff to say...

++Anguirel

[Mithalwen]

Must you kill my husband so soon? I mean I don't know if he is innocent but he is is charming and fun .... could make an elf queen die of grief...

Kath darling I asked for tweezers not shears !...situation far from being so drastic .. I am not a dwarf..though if Galadriel had a beard it would explain Gimli's crush

*continues reading*

[Volo]

The in-out-character confusion has also a second contributer. Please, Legate, either in-character or out-character.

Kath's is interesting. It might go for trying too hard, as it has a lot of nothing saying observations. Then again, it can be her sincere thoughts.

EDIT: Xd with SPM and Mith

[The Saucepan Man]

At the risk of further accusations of 'palliness', I fail to see the basis for these accusations of harshness against Ang. Perhaps I am just used to his style. However, like Mith, I would rather not see him fall at the first fence as I rather appreciate his wit.

Volo's seeming over-reaction to Ang's vote for him has pinged my radar somewhat.

[Macalaure]

Something about the Legate of Nan Curunír:

I don't agree with his interpretation of Ang at all. Is his main point that his in-character stuff could have been shorter? Well, surely it could have, but Ang had more actual arguments inside it than others did. He's accusing Ang for things he himself has been doing.

In fact, Anguirel is the only one whom I would dare to declare innocentish at this early time.

I wonder: Why does Legate emphasise that he came to the same conclusion as Six independantly?
But I guess it's premature to go and construct any links between people (which Legate passionately does). Maybe I'm paranoid because these two are my main suspects for now.

Legate's case of the Saucepan Man looks almost constructed to me. Lommy and I jumped on Six equally fast. Legate is founding far too much of his analysis upon Six's innocence, and if his ways are innocent, then they're misguided. In fact, as others have pointed out already, this is not so unlikely.

Originally Posted by Legate, about me

...when I was innocent and him as well, we were pretty much agreeing on many things.

Didn't I end up lynching you in that game? There must've been some things we didn't agree on.

Then in the end, he apologises to people who might think he's offensive, because he is just playing Saruman. In the same paragraph, he accuses me, the anonymous orc, of being offensive. I can't see the sense in this.


I will probably vote for Legate or Six today, or maybe Volo for good reasons that others have already stated. I really wouldn't like to lose Ang today.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Volo

SPM, toss me a vegetarian soup, would you please!

Vege-what? I can do you a vegemite sandwich, if you want.

Well, a bit more to get my teeth into now. So, here goes ...

Rikae – Would undoubtedly have been either a Wolf or the Seer, were she not dead.

Volo – First post mere banter. Has recently returned to note a few suspicions. But nothing solid.

Legate of Amon Lanc – Much interaction with Ang and Mith at the beginning, but little substance (despite his protestations to the contrary). Exhorted everyone to talk (or everyone then present, as he later claimed) and then got rather defensive in response to a mild rebuke from Ang. More substance in his latest post, although I find it strange that he should suspect Ang for being ‘in-character’ for too long, given his own behaviour in this regard. His comments about me are, of course, pure nonsense and look to be somewhat retaliatory in nature.

Macalaure – Laid into the continuing banterers with vigour, subsequently claiming that he was attempting to stir things up (difficult to see what this was designed to achieve, if so). Accused Rune of being defensive, then got rather defensive himself when challenged on his stance against bantering.

Boromir88 – Voted for himself (effectively wasting his first vote, seemingly in the cause of character development), then retracted to vote for Ang, for no other reason than the latter was being too chirpy. Rather erratic behaviour but, as others have noted, that can be his way.

Mithalwen – Has appeared to glide serenely through the proceedings thus far, and has done little to raise suspicion. This could be because she is innocent or it could be because she wants to give that impression. Did raise a few substantive points ‘in character’, as it were. Linked with Ang, albeit through their choice of roles.

Shastanis Althreduin – Nought but banter.

Durelin – Nought, full stop.

Xyzzy – Again, nought but banter.

Brinniel – First post banter. Her recent post focussed on Sixth and Legate (ie those currently topping the ‘most discussed’ chart) .

Thinlómien – One of the more substantive contributors. Can’t really fault her vote for Sixth, given my own suspicion of him. Nothing to raise any alarms with me so far.

The Sixth Wizard – Jumped on my flippant accusation of Ang, although he claims to have suspected him independently. Hasn’t really explained his vote, save by reference to Ang being one of the more talkative of those present. But one or two others have been equally talkative, so why Ang in particular?

Anguirel – Some substance amidst the opening flim-flammery. Mild skirmish with Legate, both in-character and in relation to Legate’s request for discussion. The only thing that I thought slightly odd was his early suggestion that the Wolves might look to distance themselves from each other. Well, not if that’s what people are looking for, they won’t. Could be a comment designed to conceal his allegiances, should he later prove malign. His recent comments on his likely vote look genuine enough.

Kath – Not sure what to make of her mysterious ‘issue’ that she decided not to raise and now claims to have changed her mind about. Why mention it at all in the first place? Her recent analysis looks pretty solid, though, with some good points raised, although I'm not sure where she got the idea that I raised the possibility of Lovers.

Gil-Galad – He came. He posted. He said he didn’t like Day 1s. And that’s about it. Where the expansive Gil of recent times?

Aganzir – Like Volo, first post was mere banter, followed up recently with a few thoughts. Nothing to raise my concerns.

Rune – Bit of banter. Other than that, his main contribution has been to challenge Mac’s criticism of the banterers.

Diamond18 – Early vote for Gil could have been an attempt to start a bandwagon. But she appears to have been obliged to vote early, and there was little to go on at that stage.

Voting thus far:

Diamond: ++Gil-Galad (Gil-1)
Boromir: ++Boromir (Gil-1, Boro-1)
Boromir: --Boromir, ++Anguirel (Gil-1, Anguirel-1)
SpM: ++Sixth (Gil-1, Anguirel-1, Sixth-1)
Sixth: ++Anguirel (Gil-1, Anguirel-2, Sixth-1)
Lommy: ++Sixth (Gil-1, Anguirel-2, Sixth-2)
Kath: ++Rune (Gil-1, Anguirel-2, Sixth-2, Rune-1)
Ang: ++Volo (Gil-1, Anguirel-2, Sixth-2, Rune-1, Volo-1)

I must conclude that, purely on the basis of my own analysis, Legate is looking rather suspicious. That said, I can certainly appreciate the possibility that he is an over-thinking innocent (having fallen into that trap myself on more than one occasion). His recent post looks to draw much firmer conclusions that I would expect from a Wolf on Day 1. And I too am wary of the suspicion gathering around him, albeit witout a vote thus far.

So I'll leave my vote for Sixer to stand for now. I'm not sure where this idea that he is inexperienced is coming from? Isn't he a veteran of something like three games now?

Edit: Crossed with Volo, as is often the way with villager-by-villager analyses.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

On to the voting. . .

So far the person that has jumped the most to my attention has been Mac, but you probably noticed that. The problem is that it does not take very much to do that on day one. His sugestion attitude did seem weird, but I also have to be aware of the fact that he actually could just be an innocent wanting to get us all talking.

For this time I shall leave him be and I will just have to see what tomorrow brings.

Originally Posted by Volo

Mith I'm inclined to trust, though again, she hasn't said anything that I see other that in-character stuff.

Lommy's vote speaks well for her, but we shall see, we shall see.

Legate and Aganzir I find innocentish.

I'm more afraid of Mac and Ang, maybe purely for their harsh tone (and because I'm paranoid after learning that I'm "the confused innocent"). I'll try not to prosecute without solid factss.


SPM, toss me a vegetarian soup, would you please!

Now this post is interesting. . .

He trusts a person even though he does not think she has said anything of substance. . . that is odd.

I have expirienced that people had an innocent feel to them, but to trust them is a very radical thing to do.

I my self do not find Mith suspiciouse, but I do not trust her.

And how does Lommy's vote speak well for her? that one I do not understand. The rest seems unbased as well, but more resonable as Volo only seem to be talking about feelings.

anyways Volo seems like the best option at this point.

++Volo

EDIT: Cross posted with SPM

[Volo]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I have expirienced that people had an innocent feel to them, but to trust them is a very radical thing to do.

Please, don't twist my words. Yes, it's not a fact as that of a Seer, and even then the Seer can be wrong. So of course I can't fully know that she is innocent, though I think she is.

And don't waste your votes on me, you won't be able to kill me anyway... I'm one of the special roles... That is, I can't be lynched or killed.

EDIT: And instead of dying, my role will be revealed if I'm "lynched" or "killed".

(Sorry, I'm not in a mood now and not too optimistic for keeping the role a secret.)

[Anguirel]

Okay. I believe Volo's probably telling the truth about his role, though what purpose an unkillable bodger serves I have very little idea.

I'd like to stress, my dear friends, that I am not at all unkillable, have very nicely combed silver hair, am quite wise, still have a vote to chuck around, and don't especially want to bite it just yet. Though it would be good for my acting schedule, what with my, ah, upcoming roles as King John, Sophocles, Chaucer and Aeneas (it's just amazing how much like my A Levels my acting career seems at the moment...real deja vu...)

That apart, erm, my brilliant original suspect choice seems to have gone awry, and I'll reserve my decision until the nailbiting last minute.

[Mithalwen]

Actually if there is a love fest going on (other than Ang and my IC one) it is Legate and Sixth it seems to me. That is a bit creepy but would 2 wolves be so bold? Maybe... wolf and cobbler-type-person might maybe..

Really don't like Mac's attitude to the IC posts - I was IC but I was also making the stating the bleeding obvious reminders that I am prone to if I am able to post early in teh day when there isn't a lot else to talk about. I see nothing suspicious in suggesting peopel bear in mind what we are up against as they read posts, to think of the various possible dynamics.

Also there were only 3 of us posting ... all with book characters and great lines to play with - did you really not expect us to fill the vacuum with a bit of fun.

More suspicious surely are those who flip in make a brief IC post and that is it.

Nominations in this category: Gil, Shasta, Xyzzy ( a few others narrowly missed nomination)

Boro and Di havn't been around much. Boro is prone to stir things up and though normally I wouldn't approve of selfvotes / frivolous votes the IC context made it funny enough to forgive him.

Di - well I wonder about Gil's sig too .... Gil is impossible to read .... he can be very right or very wrong ...

SpM seems ok so far .... and without anything concrete I prefer to hang on to "talkers".

[The Saucepan Man]

Apologies if I am misunderstanding you, Volo, but you appear to be making no sense. Since when can a Seer's dreams be wrong?

As for your claimed role, I thought that you were joking, but then your edit would suggest that you are serious. But, if you are unkillable and unlynchable, what possible downside might there be to you revealing your role anyway? Unless, you are either on the side of the Wolves or on neither the side of the Wolves nor the villagers, and merely out for yourself.

[Brinniel]

Volo's vote for Ang is now making me very uneasy. Not only was this a spite vote, but he jumped the bandwagon perhaps to make this vote seem a bit safer. Even worse, is what he says here:

Originally Posted by Volo

I'm sure thing going to vote you now. Though you're probably innocent.

Why would you vote for someone when you think they're probably innocent? Well, I guess you explain it here:

Originally Posted by Volo

Your accusation came so out of nowhere.

Okay...but not good enough to convince me.

Suddenly, Volo has been moved to the top of my suspect list.

Legate's last post is an improvement from before. Still, I feel a bit uneasy about him. Again, another suspector of Ang:

Originally Posted by Legate

From the beginning, I didn't like his style, it seemed to me as too much in-role and too long for an in-role, nothing-saying post, being vocal enough to be noticed, maybe even get sympathies, but saying nothing in game - not even trying to.

Okay, a good reason....but haven't you been doing a very similar playing style yourself?

Legate is still very suspicious to me, but as the voting already is rather spread out, I would rather not vote for him if it means a throw-away vote. Well, we still have almost an hour left, so we will see...

A lot are voting for Ang. I'm honestly not sure what to think of him at this point. Could be a wolf or could be innocent. But I see no good enough reason to vote for him, so I won't for toDay.

But anyways, my vote probably will be for Volo or Legate if nothing dramatically changes...

EDIT: X-ed with everyone since Rune. Oh my, what has happened here?!