WW XXXIII - Other Minds and Hands

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

So here it goes - another death. Mithalwen! And that's the second innocent. Can you now see the wisdom of Orthanc? Didn't I tell you Six was innocent? If you even heeded my advice, of the Wisest of the Order, we might yet have Six among us, and possibly one wolf down.

Let us not think that a yesterday's Survivor husband might not participate on a plot to kill his wife. It's a wife just in role, anyway. I am no fool, and I do not trust you, Anguirel. They do not stand openly on my stairs, but I know where the wild wolf-demons are lurking, at your command.

But come now. I think that we must seek first, who might have had interests in killing Mithalwen. I'm going to gaze to my Palantír and then I'll hopefully come back with some info on that.

EDIT: x-ed with everyone. Woo-hoo, Shasta, what was that supposed to be? I just saw it in the corner of my eye, have to read your post...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

On current posts:

Interesting point on Boromir, Volo. I don't know if he ever plays like that, but I would like to add that it was him who, in our last game, still spoke about need to be accusatory in order to get things running. He made impression on me of one of the active, "pioneering" types. He isn't now. His first post calls "meeegajoke" or "cobbler", but the second one, for no reason, votes Anguirel at first. Be it a wolfy start of bandwaggon (or just trying to do it) or a wolf-on-wolf "safe" vote (without knowing the consequences, we had similar things here many times before), it doesn't look much good.

Seeing Shasta has no real support for his vote, this was quite an unlucky move from you, Shasta: such a thing really raises alarm. When I thought about it however, it comes to me that you might be in press to not be modkilled and that you might have somehow gained the impression that I am guilty so you just voted to save your life without possibility to dig into it deeper. However, as I said before, it's an unfortunate move and I hope you'll be around tomorrow with more "sensible" playing. Of course I'm not happy at all that you picked me of all the possibilities.

About Mith: Mith wasn't much active yesterday, but I'll still have to look at it, haven't gone through properly. However, I wouldn't be so fast to condemn it to "leaving no track". Of course the wolves likely do it that way, but if we can get at least something, it'd be good. Interesting thing is that from my experience, the Wolves are quite often the first to come and say "oh, it was made to leave no track" - and this might be even in the case that it indeed was made to leave no track.

[Rikae]

voice from beyond the grave:

As I said on the admin thread, players who do not post for two days will be modkilled.
I didn't mention players who post but don't vote. Those are left to the village to deal with as it sees fit.

[Anguirel]

I don't have much enthusiasm for this racket anymore, to be honest. I was almost hoping Mithaladriel would be guilty - it would have been better to have been betrayed by her than to stand impotently by when she was slain. It will be a sadder and less amusing game without her, but I suppose I'd better make a lacklustre attempt at vengeance.

A grim affair. I shall return in the morn, but meanwhile I have a little choice advice to the White Wizard. You dislike my style, it is clear, thinking it strange...but that does not necessarily mean either that it is strange in my terms (it really isn't, not that I'd care if it was), nor that I am necessarily guilty or innocent.

I urge you to keep an open mind and follow evidence, not taste. For myself I think both you and Volo are pompous rather than guilty...which means my whole performance yesterday was pretty off the rails.

I think Sauce is innocent due to the way he acted last night, showing intelligence and adaptability, at least from my point of view. I'd like to hear more from Diamond, largely as it would brighten things up...

I am rather concerned about Aganzir. His widowhood quip looks like a potential wolf-gloat. You'd say, no wolf would be foolish enough to wolf-gloat, but in the past when guilty I've often done it, enjoyed it and sometimes got away with it...part of the thrill of the chase.

My poor dear Lady. Namarie.

[The Saucepan Man]

Very sorry to see Mithalwen go. Anyone else need a stiff drink? I have a fine Scottish Malt here, if anyone’s interested.

I would agree with the conclusions of most that she was killed because she leaves a relatively cold trail and was regarded largely without much suspicion. She is also a dangerous adversary for the Wolves, as she has a flair for deduction. My first thought was that Anguirel, of all those present, would be the least likely to have chosen her to die as they were playing off each other well. But he can be a devious fellow, has a good grasp of tactics and bluffery and knows Mith’s werewolfing ways and skills very well.

Of course, the abiding aim of the Wolves in their Nightly kills is to find the Seer while he or she yet lives. Yet I can see nothing in her posts that might have made the Wolves think her the Seer.

Her main suspects appear to have been Legate (who she voted for) and Mac (for his comments about bantering) both of whom she described as ‘scratchy’. She was also suspicious of Gil, Shasta and Xyzzy, for contributing little more than brief ‘in-character’ posts. She appears to have been relatively comfortable with Ang (as she was keen not to see him lynched) and me (“seems OK so far”). But she did not outline any really firm conclusions.

And so to the voting. My traditional modus operandi is to look for ‘safe’ votes, although this is of slightly less use when the votes are retractable. Still, it’s worth a look. The safest vote looks to me to have been that cast by Kath, since Rune was not under particularly heavy suspicion at that time. Di’s vote for Gil might be considered safe, but has been explained. Rune’s vote for Volo was perhaps less safe as, prior to his revelation, it looked like Volo might attract a few votes.

The non-voters are of course suspicious by virtue of their lack of vote, but none contributed much, if anything, yesterDay, so I would like to hear more from them.

Other than that, all the votes were, I think, cast for Sixth, Anguirel and Legate.

Sixth voters: Me, Lommy, Mac, Volo and Anguirel

I wouldn’t regard Lommy’s vote as particularly safe, as early suspicion was already gathering around Sixth. It might be regarded as an attempt to grease a bandwaggon against an innocent, although I can understand why she thought him the most suspicious at that stage, as I did too. Of course, I realise that the same points apply broadly to my own vote, but I know that it was cast innocently. Since I am accepting Volo’s claim for now, and Anguirel was voting to save himself, I do not regard either of those votes as particularly suspicious. Which leaves Mac’s vote. This was effectively the one which pushed Sixth into pole position as the “not Anguirel” candidate, rather than Legate. As such, I regard it as the most suspicious of the Sixth votes.

Legate voters: Mith, Aganzir, Brinniel

Difficult to draw any conclusions from these. Mith, obviously, was innocent. All were cast in the last minute flurry, when cross-posting is a danger. Brin’s late vote, however, is curious as it was cast at a time, I think, when Sixth was leading in the votes, and so risked creating a last minute tie.

Anguirel voters: Boro, Sixth, Legate

I don’t regard Boro’s vote as particularly safe, as Ang was already attracting suspicion, and it is in itself suspicious by virtue of being wholly unexplained. Legate, I guess, was voting to save himself, even though he had only one vote at the time, and was in line with his stated suspicions.

So, on the basis of this, I would regard the votes of Kath, Mac and Brinniel as the most suspicious, although it does not follow necessarily from a suspicious vote that the voter is a Wolf. Also, I am wary that there may well be a Wolf among the non-voters.

I do, however, remain suspicious of Legate, for the reasons stated yesterDay. I would have been quite willing to vote for him yesterDay, had he gained more votes earlier as, if anything, I regarded him as the more likely Wolf than Sixth by the end of the Day. And I found this comment curious:

Originally Posted by Legate

I guess it's obvious that Six is toast now, but I daresay that you made a mistake, and if not, I'm going to eat my own Orc-food...

He could not be sure that Sixth was not a Wolf, unless a Wolf himself. The comment looks rather self-serving to me, and sure enough he has returned toDay with an “I told you so”.

Legate remains high in my suspicions.

Must dash, but I'll be back later. I'll leave the Malt on the counter.

[Volo]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Of course, the abiding aim of the Wolves in their Nightly kills is to find the Seer while he or she yet lives. Yet I can see nothing in her posts that might have made the Wolves think her the Seer.

Even though not wolf, I did think of her as a Gifted myself, that's why the trust. Can't find the phrases now, and they might have been intentional, though most probably I'm just paranoid.

[Volo]

SPM in interesting, even from the mere fact that he has written a huge amount of posts. He noted Legate as suspicious right from the beginning.

The only thing that raises my hair (not wolf-like hair. Just the usual hair (that is, in fact, longer than of a wolf's) is his early vote for Sixth. He voted for Sixth was very like Sixth's vote for Ang.

I'll leave it on this for now.


BTW, Legate, you've been saying that you have sense in every post of yours. Could you please clarify.

First post: You're saying "silence kills" and "Gifteds, reveal yourself"?

Second post: Umm, what?

Third post: Explaining Ang that you don't want the ones not able to speak to speak.

Fourth post: Gah, here you got me to sympathise with you... I actually find this post with the most sense so far. Oh, I hope I'm not totally wrong. Though you could have said it all much shorter and bolded out the names to save us from more confusion.

Fifth post: This is probably the post where suspicion rose. I really don't understand the first part, because, as I see it, you are accusing Ang for what you yourself are doing. You might have sense in every post, and so might Ang, the problem is that you can add the meaning to the post much later, when you are questioned. That's why I don't like in-out-character posts, in which you can later decide what's in and what's out.

Sixth post: Reasonable. Can't (or shouldn't) say much when not much has been said. But I don't get the SPM part, is it just "I'm not 100% that you're innocent"?

Seventh post: Agreed.

Eighth post: You were right, and suspicious at that. ?

Ninth post: Howcome so certain?

Jumping vote-tally tenth post.

Eleventh post: Nah, accusing for what you yourself have done, again...

Twelfth post: I won't say anything about Mith and Ang killing/not killing her.

Thirteenth post: Hmm... Good that you agree with me. Though I'm not so scared of the change in Boro's style as what his style is now. Might be that you are pressing too hard on the idea and trying to get my sympathy as I have clearly shown it.
I don't feel alarmed in the least about Shasta's vote. Ok, it's really really wierd. But understandable.
Weren't you the first to say that it was to leave no tracs?

On the whole: I don't know! Legate goes both ways. Many things have raised my alert, as his trying for sympathy and in-out-character posts. But then again, he has made a lot of sense and on the whole looks innocentish. I'm not inlined to vote for him now.


Huh, it's getting late here. I think I'll quit for now.


(Probably) Xd with everything after my preveous post.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I am rather concerned about Aganzir. His widowhood quip looks like a potential wolf-gloat. You'd say, no wolf would be foolish enough to wolf-gloat, but in the past when guilty I've often done it, enjoyed it and sometimes got away with it...part of the thrill of the chase.

This will probably seem explaining, and rather increase your suspicion than lessen it, but I would never have said that and taken the risk of being suspected, were I a wolf. When I read through Mith's posts at the beginning of the Day, I thought the one where she said she needs to know if widowhood is imminent was funny on a tragic way, and couldn't resist mentioning it. Please note that this is only my second game.
And oh, you can call me she.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hmph, though I was skeptical somewhat, it really seems there was nothing - or at least nothing recognizable for me - behind the death of Mith. The points about her possible behavior as Seer might have some logic in it, though it didn't strike me like that - Galadriel has a mirror, that's a fact, no? Nevertheless, the motive might be there, even just like a support. This, however, does not help us.

Concerning the momentary debate:
Agnazir: I don't think Aganzir's "widowhood" notes are of interest, though I'd certainly find some things that could be. First I wanted to wait, but now when it was mentioned, I have only to say Aganzir just creates too many ambivalent fellings in me - I can't probably work with it now.

Ad SpM:

Originally Posted by SpM

He could not be sure that Sixth was not a Wolf, unless a Wolf himself.

As you were among the Six-voters as well, I wouldn't be as loud, being you. But concerning this, I thought, and I stand behind it, from the start (and you can even read it in my posts waay back there) that Six does not seem suspicious in anything, and the bandwaggon that formed against him was really very nasty. And as you were the one who started it, you are not in good light for me, as I said earlier. Lommy had to vote early, so the evidence cannot be based on her vote since it might have been just a momentary need to vote (and perhaps Ang is her lover or something like that, so that she didn't vote for him and picked Six instead). Ang, whatever suspicious he was/is to me, was voting to save himself, so even if he were a wolf, this vote would be logical even for innocent. Volo's was the first one that seemed strange to me, but now when I trust Volo, I can only say - even innocents do strange things sometimes. And then there is Mac, who seemed somewhat fishy to me yesterday and now is still. I think it's quite possible for two wolves to be in one voting - if they are SpM and Mac. From this point, Ang wouldn't fit that well in that scheme but, why not - three wolves out of four, one voting to save his skin. Hypothesis, of course, and very very imaginative, I know. But the main thought is in there.

We, of course (!) cannot forget that there might be more than one, even more than two wolves among the quiet people. But, however unfortunate it is, no evidence is bad evidence, so I suggest focusing on those who speak, and thus there is info about them. Hmm... now something struck me... Mith was the one who mentioned at one (or more) occassion that she would like to focus on the quiet ones (the opposite of what I'm saying here, this is how the idea came to me). What if the wolves are quiet and they killed Mith because...? (Another speculation. But worth mentioning, I'm sure.)

Other things. Just to recall one more thing on SpM which I said earlier - there were these possible links between SpM and Ang, if there were, and if Ang is a wolf - and even if he was not, SpM would have a good chance being a wolf (cf. the nice "I was just joking about Ang being suspicious and Six jumped on it, lookiee lookiee, ++Six" move of you). I remember you as wolf, SpM, and I know what you are capable of. I wanted to bring this back just so it's not forgotten. The way SpM seems to me lately, it's worth mentioning.

[Volo]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

This will probably seem explaining, and rather increase your suspicion than lessen it, but I would never have said that and taken the risk of being suspected, were I a wolf. When I read through Mith's posts at the beginning of the Day, I thought the one where she said she needs to know if widowhood is imminent was funny on a tragic way, and couldn't resist mentioning it. Please note that this is only my second game.
And oh, you can call me she.

What iss she doing, what is she doing! This is actually a very funny post.

1. "Were I a wolf..."

2. "I'm just a newbie..."

Two bad signss. Oh Preciouss...

[Volo]

Originally Posted by Legate

Other things. Just to recall one more thing on SpM which I said earlier - there were these possible links between SpM and Ang, if there were, and if Ang is a wolf - and even if he was not, SpM would have a good chance being a wolf (cf. the nice "I was just joking about Ang being suspicious and Six jumped on it, lookiee lookiee, ++Six" move of you). I remember you as wolf, SpM, and I know what you are capable of. I wanted to bring this back just so it's not forgotten. The way SpM seems to me lately, it's worth mentioning.

Hmm... Possible. But maybe a bit far-fetched. I'd rather go with Boro-Ang.

Anguirel, what do you think of Boromir?

Boromir, what do you think of anything?

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Gollum

What iss she doing, what is she doing! This is actually a very funny post.

1. "Were I a wolf..."

2. "I'm just a newbie..."

Two bad signss. Oh Preciouss...

We assumed it would look bad, precious, we did, but we didn't care. Poor Sméagol knows it, but good Sméagol bears it.
We understand we were being suspicious, but we couldn't think of a better way to express what we were thinking.
But referring to my newbieness was because it didn't even occur to me that a wolf might find it amusing to say something like what I'd said. (Apparently I should have realised it myself.)

First we thought we would not bother to comment Anguirel's petty accusation, but then we thought it would be good to correct his mistake concerning our gender, precious. And when we had already started writing a reply, no matter if we would say something more. And now we're probably making us look more and more suspicious. That's the way it goes, precious.

edit: I forgot to mention I'll be off to sleep now. I doubt I'll be back too soon, I'm dead tired.

[Volo]

Having reread Mac, I see an innocent or a careful wolf. I'm inclined to believe him innocent for now as the carefulness is a bit too careful for a wolf... (Can't see bluffs.)

About Brinniel I can't say anything except that she's eccentric. A good reason not to vote her then, or then I just don't want her to die young, again. Although her vote is a bit wierd, I'll let it pass, for now.

Lommy. Nah, I don't have anything to say... But I do hope you'll be online toDay *cough*there're plenty of places with a net*cough*.

So far so empty... Continuing investigation.


EDIT: Xd with Ang. Good point about Aganzir, though maybe too early pointed out!