Beardless

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Normally-held, but mistaken. Surely after twenty years people are aware that Appendix F was garbled, and that the 'dark-haired' description there was intended to refer to the Noldor alone, not all the Eldar?

You are correct that it is garbled, and applies specifically to the Noldor, and not all the Eldar, but since Thranduil is a Sinda, and thus of the Teleri, blond is not a hair colour that would be associated with them. Golden hair is associated with the Vanyar, but the Teleri are like the Noldor in being primarily dark-haired, and I quote:

Originally Posted by Tolkien, in "Quendi and Eldar", HoME XI,

On the origin of this name [Sindar] see Note 11. The Loremasters also supposed that reference was made to the hair of the Sindar. Elwë himself had indeed long and beautiful hair of silver hue, but this does not seem to have been a common feature of the Sindar, though it was found among them occasionally, especially in the nearer or remoter kin of Elwë (as in the case of Círdan). In general, the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles [Noldor], being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe. Indeed, they could hardly be told apart except by their eyes; for the eyes of all the Elves that had dwelt in Aman impressed those of Middle-earth by their piercing brightness.

As a Telerin Elf generally, and as a Sindarin Elf specifically, I stand by saying that a blond-haired Thranduil would have been atypical for his race, though provision is also made earlier in the same text (in discussing the Noldor) to leave a little leeway for intermarriage with the Vanyar in days before or during the Great March.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Quite so- and let's also please allow for natural variation within populations! For example Mahtan and three of his grandsons had red hair, and Nerdanel's was brown- even though 'officially' all non-Finarfinian Noldor had raven locks.

Nor can we forget the nameless Elf of Lorien who helped Haldir with the rope-bridge: whether Noldo, Sinda, or Nando he's not 'supposed' to have golden hair: but he does.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Indeed, they could hardly be told apart except by their eyes; for the eyes of all the Elves that had dwelt in Aman impressed those of Middle-earth by their piercing brightness.

On wonders- how did one tell Sindar from Beleriand-born Noldor?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

As a Telerin Elf generally, and as a Sindarin Elf specifically, I stand by saying that a blond-haired Thranduil would have been atypical for his race, though provision is also made earlier in the same text (in discussing the Noldor) to leave a little leeway for intermarriage with the Vanyar in days before or during the Great March.

Yes, but Thranduil (or simply 'the Elvenking') first came into being in TH, which was not directly linked to the Legendarium at all originally, so Tolkien would not have actually cared about 'consistency' or lack of same. The Elves of TH could all have had blonde hair, pink eyes & carried teddy bears (Rateliff points put that the prominence of bears in Tolkiens children's stories (TH, Father Christmas Letters & Mr Bliss) comes down to the fact that his audience (Christopher, Michael, John & Priscilla) all had beloved teddy bears (Priscilla at one time owning over sixty of them ).

Another example of the arguments one can get into by treating TH as part of the Legendarium proper......

[Morwen]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

On wonders- how did one tell Sindar from Beleriand-born Noldor?

I suppose you couldn't tell just by looking and that whether a particular dark haired elf is a Sinda or Noldo is something that can only be determined through conversation/interaction.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli
Quite so- and let's also please allow for natural variation within populations! For example Mahtan and three of his grandsons had red hair, and Nerdanel's was brown- even though 'officially' all non-Finarfinian Noldor had raven locks.

This is, in part, why I don't think that Thranduil's golden hair is a huge issue. In The Hobbit, IIRC, only Thranduil is described as golden haired. I don't recall the hair colour of the other Wood Elves being mentioned. Golden hair as a trait therefore may be personal to him, and may possibly be shared by his close relatives.

Or (speculating) it may be that Thranduil has a Vanya ancestor in his family tree.

In any event I don't think that one Sinda being described in TH as golden haired is enough to cast doubt on/cause significant conflict with anything said elsewhere on the hair colour of the Sindar.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Normally-held, but mistaken. Surely after twenty years people are aware that Appendix F was garbled, and that the 'dark-haired' description there was intended to refer to the Noldor alone, not all the Eldar?

Christopher Tolkien objects to the implication concerning the Vanyar, but he also notes...

'But my father carefully remodeled the passage in order to apply it to the Eldar as a whole, and it does seem 'extraordinary' that he should have failed to observe this point.' Christopher Tolkien The Appendix on Languages HME XII

I agree it does seem extraordinary and so I cannot agree with characterizing a Tolkien-published description in a prime source such as The Lord of the Rings as a garbled mistake because a draft reads differently.

In any case I see no great reason to give the 'Vanyarin concern' textual parity here: published text concerning the Eldar outweighs unpublished text concerning the Vanyar in my opinion (and certainly outweighs draft text).

[MatthewM]

Does anybody know, as Anáwiel is M.I.A., where this quote is from?

In a note written in December 1972 or later, and among the last writings of my father's on the subject of Middle-earth, there is a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless); and it is here noted in connection with the princely house of Dol Amroth that "this line had a special Elvish strain, according to its own legends" (with a reference to the speeches between Legolas and Imrahil in The Return of the King V 9, cited above).

[Galin]

MatthewM, that was published as part of The History Of Galadriel And Celeborn in Unfinished Tales

And with respect to Elves anyway, Tolkien once wrote (published in Vinyar Tengwar 41)...

'Elves did not have beards until they entered their third cycle of life. Nerdanel's father was exceptional, being only early in his second.' JRRT, VT 41

[MatthewM]

Thanks. What is Vinyar Tengwar? Elvish speech? Is there a section for this in UT or HoMe?