They Shall Not Pass!

[Raynor]

I have the impression that this is a somewhat of a standard slogan everywhere. For example, during WWII, a similar version of it circulated concerning the protection of a mountain pass into Transylvania ("there is no passing through here!"). I guess it is similar to a "stand your ground" order to soldiers; Tolkien, having served in the military, would not be a stranger to this.

[The Might]

Bah, I actually was going to say the same thing as Raynor just did.
I guess such a phrase is a good way to raise the moral of the soldiers, give them some more self-confidence and prepare them for the battle.

Though Gandalf doesn't want to raise anyone's moral, but instead to intimidate his opponent and maybe make him retreat.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I have the impression that this is a somewhat of a standard slogan everywhere. For example, during WWII, a similar version of it circulated concerning the protection of a mountain pass into Transylvania ("there is no passing through here!"). I guess it is similar to a "stand your ground" order to soldiers; Tolkien, having served in the military, would not be a stranger to this.

I of course knew of "stand your ground" but that is more of a command, where as the other is a pledge, a moral booster. For me it holds much more than a simple statement about not letting the enemy through, it is a thing that can unite and make people stand together.

Anyways I did not know it was also used in WWII, that somewhat decreases the importance of Tolkien serving at the west front during WWII.

I just found it very interesting that this saying was made famouse in a war that Tolkien participated in and on the same front. I got some idea that maybe these words had inspired him in some way or maybe even have ment something for him during the war. . .

[Lalwendë]

You're correct Rune, it is a very different kind of phrase. Not only is it more succinct but it is spoken as a Word Of Command - not to soldiers but to a 'supernatural being'. What Gandalf says is an attempt at a spell, and likewise, words composed to boost morale such as On ne passe pas are attempts at 'spellbinding', at capturing hearts and minds. It's a very subtle difference.

[Lalwendë]

Rune reminded me of this yesterday!

I had been looking into some of the history of the Battle of Cable Street (which took place in 1936 in London's East End) and one of the things that struck me was how the massed ranks of anti-fascists used the refrain No Pasaran! Which as Rune states translates into They Shall Not Pass.

I didn't realise, though, just how famous this phrase is. It was indeed first coined in WWI, but mostly at the time used by the French. The real fame of the phrase came about because of use at both Cable Street and the Siege of Madrid, which began earlier the same year - No Pasaran! was so well known that when Franco finally led his fascist forces into Madrid, he declared 'Hemos pasado' (I have passed).

And it's still in widespread use today, including by those who stand against the EDL in England. It is indeed so much more than a simple command, it's a rallying cry and I have no doubt Tolkien would have been very much aware of it. I'm quite pleased about this, following on from accusations from less well-informed types that his work is 'fascistic'. Anything but.

[Galadriel55]

Just want to point out that although "you shall not pass" is the way we remember the phrase, and this way it sounds more majestic - and this is the one used in the movies - Tolkien wrote "You cannot pass".

Would this affect the debate?

In a way, Gandalf is not intimidating or uplifting moral or summoning strength or etc. He's stating fact.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

In a way, Gandalf is not intimidating or uplifting moral or summoning strength or etc. He's stating fact.

Not quite a statement of fact. A prophecy, perhaps. Same thing, maybe.

Before many of the major confrontations in LOtR there is an exchange of prophecy. "You shall have neither the ring, nor me." "Fall back into the abyss that awaits you and your master." "This is my hour. Do you not know death when you see it? Die now, and curse in vain!" (A cock crows, indicating sunrise, beginning a new hour.) "No mortal man may hinder me." "But no mortal man am I!" "If you touch me ever again, you will be cast yourself into the crack of doom." (Dumbest prophecy of all of fantasy!)

If you don't pay careful attention to the exchange of words before confrontations, you miss a good part of the magic in the books.

Anyway, in the movie, with the Nine in the ford advancing on Arwen, her line is to the effect of, "If you want the ring, come and take it!" ARGHHHH! Absolutely the wrong thing to say in Middle Earth! The screenwriters absolutely and positively didn't get it.

Grumble...

Prophecy. When one's life is on the line one might say something that will be true, but be very careful what you say. If there is a response that will pull the rug (or bridge) out from under you, you could get into trouble.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by blantyr

If you don't pay careful attention to the exchange of words before confrontations, you miss a good part of the magic in the books.

Very true.

Anyway, in the movie, with the Nine in the ford advancing on Arwen, her line is to the effect of, "If you want the ring, come and take it!"

Isn't it something like "come and claim him"? Even worse! ("shoty! He's mine!" )

Prophecy. When one's life is on the line one might say something that will be true, but be very careful what you say. If there is a response that will pull the rug (or bridge) out from under you, you could get into trouble.

"On their deathbed men will speak true", per Brandir. When you're life's at stake, you don't know if this is it for you - the last chance to speak. Not only truth, but also foresight/prophecy.

[Mithalwen]

Galadriel is right.

It is a statement of fact. Tolkien of all people knew how language worked. There is a big difference between can, may, shall, and will to those who care about such things. There is a huge difference in meaning between "I shall be drowned and no one will save me" and "I will be drowned and no one shall save me" - but I suppose not everyone notices now. Presumably they didn't have the sort of teachers who would respond "I am sure you CAN go, they question is "may you".

He is talking about the present moment not some future event. It is just Top Trumps and Gandalf wins. He is "hoist by his own petard" but it does not stop it being factual. There is none of the "promise, command or threat" that would be intended by the use of "you shall". Nor is it the simple future of "you will" not the question of permission linked to "you may"... just you are not able to pass, because I am here.