Silmarillion - Chapter 12 - Of Men

[Alphaelin]

Originally Posted by "Of Men", para 2

The Atani they were named by the Eldar, Followers, and many other names: Apanónar, the After-born, Engwar, the Sickly, and Fírimar, the Mortals; and they named them the Usurpers, the Strangers and the Inscrutable, the Self-cursed, the Heavy-handed, the Night-fearers, the Children of the Sun.

Harumph, I could certainly live without being called "Engwar", although I've found that being "Inscrutable" has come in handy at times.

Bêthberry wrote:

It seems to me that none of these names suggest a particularly positive or strong attachment to the second children. Rather, these names sound like those of a first born possibly jealous of the next-born.

I think that there is a certain amount of truth in this statement, although I think the differences between Men and the rest of Iluvatar's creation were intended to demonstrate both the best and the worst aspects of humans in the book. Later in the same paragraph as Bêthberry's quote, one gets the impression that Men were regarded as the 'red-headed stepchildren' of Arda:

To Hildorien there came no Vala to guide Men, or to summon them to dwell in Valinor; and Men have feared the Valar, rather than loved them, and have not understood the purposes of the Powers, being at variance with them , and at strife with the world.

Yet the last paragraph of this chapter blames the estrangement of Men and Elves as the work of Morgoth, ending

...in the dawn of years Elves and Men were allies and held themselves akin, and there were some among Men that learned the wisdom of the Eldar, and became great and valiant among the captains of the Noldor.

So BB's comment that the names given to Men by Elves reflects the growing estrangement between the Children of Iluvatar makes sense, yet it is the influence of Morgoth which causes the two Peoples to withdraw from each other.

One thing about this chapter that also strikes me is the phrase "being at strife with the world". It could also describe the sons of Feanor in their vow of vengeance against any who withhold a Silmaril from them. The phrase reflects a sense of disharmony with Iluvatar's Arda, and to me implies a willingness to go against his will. In terms of Tolkien's Christian faith, disobedience to God's will is the root of humanity's tendency toward sin. Considered this way the phrase has always led me to think that it is a wonder that some Men in The Silmarillion *don't* fall.

Men may not understand the world, but then Elves and the Valar do not understand Men, and the Atani are doomed to make their way in a world which they pass through in a brief time (compared to the Elves), and where they have had not had the same chances to learn about it in the same ways the ageless Elves did. The bodies of the Eldar can be injured or killed, or waste away with illness perhaps, but only Men die of old age.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Alphaelin

One thing about this chapter that also strikes me is the phrase "being at strife with the world". It could also describe the sons of Feanor in their vow of vengeance against any who withhold a Silmaril from them. The phrase reflects a sense of disharmony with Iluvatar's Arda, and to me implies a willingness to go against his will. In terms of Tolkien's Christian faith, disobedience to God's will is the root of humanity's tendency toward sin. Considered this way the phrase has always led me to think that it is a wonder that some Men in The Silmarillion *don't* fall.

Well, all the race of Men is fallen; the closest they were to overcoming that was with Numenor, but they blew it:

The Downfall is partly the result of an inner weakness in Men – consequent, if you will, upon the first Fall (unrecorded in these tales), repented but not finally healed.

Frankly, having some Men not fallen from the very start is my favorite divergence from Tolkien's work

Originally Posted by Alphaelin

The bodies of the Eldar can be injured or killed, or waste away with illness perhaps, but only Men die of old age.

Actually, illness can't kill them

Originally Posted by Of the flight of the Noldor, Silmarillion

For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Ea, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Alphaelin

Yet the last paragraph of this chapter blames the estrangement of Men and Elves as the work of Morgoth, ending

. . .

So BB's comment that the names given to Men by Elves reflects the growing estrangement between the Children of Iluvatar makes sense, yet it is the influence of Morgoth which causes the two Peoples to withdraw from each other.

Hello and welcome to the Downs, Alphaelin. I don't think I've had the pleasure of posting with you before--although to be honest I'm hopeless most of the time with names. And faces don't count here!

That quotation does not of itself suggest the estrangement is solely due to Morgoth. Perhaps it is my lack of liking of the elves, but I can't help but think that at least part of the estrangement derives from the elves' own failing. They are mightily involved with themselves and their own skills, talents, abilities. There's even a quote somewhere which specifices how they had little time for races other than their own. LotR? I can't recall now. Despite being created by Eru, I think the elves had weaknesses and failings and are at least somewhat responsible for their--can I use this word?--eventual extinction in Middle-earth.

[Raynor]

I think the elves had weaknesses and failings and are at least somewhat responsible for their--can I use this word?--eventual extinction in Middle-earth.

There are much more things at play that caused their extinction - the consuming of their body by their fea, the destruction of their body by the marring of Melkor - but first and foremost: they are destined to make way for the Men. Their actions, good or bad, could not have changed any of these.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Alphaelin

One thing about this chapter that also strikes me is the phrase "being at strife with the world". It could also describe the sons of Feanor in their vow of vengeance against any who withhold a Silmaril from them. The phrase reflects a sense of disharmony with Iluvatar's Arda, and to me implies a willingness to go against his will. In terms of Tolkien's Christian faith, disobedience to God's will is the root of humanity's tendency toward sin. Considered this way the phrase has always led me to think that it is a wonder that some Men in The Silmarillion *don't* fall.

You know... I'm thinking now... and what you've said here is prompting some ideas. Not very solid ones, but it's interesting that you mention Tolkien's Christian faith and "the world".

See, there is an opposition in Christianity (well... the Catholic branch is the one I'm familiar with, but that's where Tolkien was coming from too, so I shall generalise) of God, and all that is with God: ie. Christians, and "the world". Christians are, ideally, said to "live in the world, but are not of the world".

Taken out of context, and applied to Men in Middle-Earth, that sounds very like the Doom of Men, does it not?

What's also interesting is the fact that "being at strife with the world" could be, in a Christian context, taken as a POSITIVE description of Man being so different from the Quendi, in that it would be evidence of Man's ability to work against Fate allowing him to work against evil (that is, the World).

Interesting thoughts, anyway...