Did JRRT encourage new ME stories?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

It really seems to me that you can couch all this in very well meaning and high sounding terms and debate all about the nuances of the various issues but , in the end, this all comes down to $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. On all sides.

Indeed. Which is why I feel strongly. For all that people chunner about mythologies, being an intellectual hippy, Barthes, whatever, it does come down to wanting to earn some cash. And if anyone has a moral right to cash made from Tolkien's work it is the family alone - he struggled to bring them up and they deserve some financial legacy, and it's not as if they are living the life of riley like Paris Hilton, they give the bulk of it to charity.

As for dramatisations - there have been many, many more than you would think. For example, I know of one of The Hobbit by Rony Robinson - no Tolkien expert, just a BBC Radio Sheffield DJ.

[Quempel]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Indeed. Which is why I feel strongly. For all that people chunner about mythologies, being an intellectual hippy, Barthes, whatever, it does come down to wanting to earn some cash. And if anyone has a moral right to cash made from Tolkien's work it is the family alone - he struggled to bring them up and they deserve some financial legacy, and it's not as if they are living the life of riley like Paris Hilton, they give the bulk of it to charity.

As for dramatisations - there have been many, many more than you would think. For example, I know of one of The Hobbit by Rony Robinson - no Tolkien expert, just a BBC Radio Sheffield DJ.

I agree. The idea of others making profit off of the Tolkien works and his idea is rather sickening. The whole NL/PJ fiasco is a prime example of two different people/institutions that have made billions off of Tolkien's ideas. I know the estate made money off of the movies, but not nearly as much as NL or PJ and co. But the bottom line is if JRR Tolkien was not the master writer and genius he was, both NL and Peter Jackson would be turning out nothing so grand and profitable as the movies were. Neither NL or PJ has the ability or billiance to actually write a something as magnificent as the ME stories. That alone belongs to JRR Tolkien. Does it mean someone else can not write a brilliant story about ME, no it does not, but the chances are highly unlikely. Neither Shay nor Jackson put together has that much brain power.

Of course I am probably only one of a few that hate to see the Tolkien ideas get raped by mass media and hack writers in an attempt to make money. If someone wants to write a play about elfs and shiny jewels then they can write the book first. Maybe they can even stretch their brains enough to actually produce a new story, not a rip-off of Tolkien. But then again most don't care they just want more ME stories, take take take until its all gone. Disregard Tolkien so long as we get more ME stories. We don't care about Tolkien nor his children or grandchildren, we wants it all precious, its ours. Sorry I not Gollum or Melkor or Sauron. I don't need to cut down Tolkien to make pretty jewels so I can think for one minute that I am as great of a writer as Tolkien, or that I deserve his light.

[Raynor]

Well, while we are at it, I nominate Valandil, moderator at www.entmoot.com . You can check some of his writtings:
Letters of Firiel
Tales of Nolduryon
Visitors Come to Court

[Sauron the White]

davem ... I have deep respect for your knowledge of Tolkien and his writings. I find your posts well written and well thought out.

However, comparing the writing of a drama about the First Age with the ridiculous possibility of aliens and Bush transforming into a chicken is simply absurd and demeans your own intelligence. One is a very real possibility given the realities of the world we live in. The other is just you being silly.

What good does a comparison like this do?

And I agree that Tolkien changed his mind from his earlier position. I agree that JRRT had that right and there is nothing wrong with his decision. I agree that he had a right to dispose of his property, real or intellectual or otherwise, anyway he deemed fit. Regardless, it is interesting that, at one time at least, his mind was of a different orientation regarding such contributions to his mythology.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Well, while we are at it, I nominate Valandil, moderator at www.entmoot.com . ]

Well, the links are incredibly slow, but I'll keep trying.

For now I'll just ask, is it worth it? Once the Estate authorises a new M-e novel the floodgates will be open. M-e will no-longer be Tolkien's creation, but a franchise. There will be a stream of novels, as with the Star Wars/Star Trek franchises, some good, some bad, accepted by some, rejected by others - & all of them, ultimately, unnecessary.

Originally Posted by STW

However, comparing the writing of a drama about the First Age with the ridiculous possibility of aliens and Bush transforming into a chicken is simply absurd and demeans your own intelligence. One is a very real possibility given the realities of the world we live in. The other is just you being silly.

Reductio ad Absurdam & all that......

What you're suggesting (a 'genius' appearing to continue Tolkien's work, & enhance & deepen his creation) is just as 'absurd'. You only think its a real possibility because you've convinced yourself this 'genius' is out there, just waiting to start writing.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

Well, the links are incredibly slow, but I'll keep trying.

Sorry to hear that; the links still work for me.

Reductio ad Absurdam & all that

Reductio ad absurdam means that you derrive an absurd outcome from the premise, which indicates that the initial premise was wrong. I don't see any absurd conclusion in this case.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I don't see any absurd conclusion in this case.

I think it was Frank Herbert (author of the Dune Books) who said "The beginning of knowledge is the discovery of something we do not understand."

[davem]

Interesting in this context:

http://www.epinions.com/content_374810250884

The Fantasy Disconnect

Tolkien is often credited for inspiring the modern genre of fantasy literature, and in many ways his influence is inarguable. But The Children of Hurin reemphasizes the fact that what Tolkien was about was something very different from what fantasy has become.

While the express purpose behind publishing this book was to give the story an opportunity to stand alone, something it accomplishes only with a significant introductory note, it is always clear that the mode has more in common with history or legend than it does with the adventures found in today's bookstore aisles. This can be felt in the amount of context and trivia surrounding the story, the use of elevated language, and the narrative tone, which insists the book be read as the summary of events ancient and wonderful, as opposed to a full and neat telling of a story with the immediacy and involvement we've come to expect from fantasy.

Do not come looking for a child of prophecy, called to free his people, slay the dragon, save the princess, and defeat the dark lord. In The Children of Hurin those tropes are all twisted to evil parodies, and the hero's theme is failure and defeat. It is a far cry from the eucatastrophies of popular fantasy, or even of The Lord of the Rings.


Provident Evil

The victory of evil over the fading flower of a more glorious age is central to Tolkien's elegiac ethos, his inheritance from the Northern literature he studied as a preeminent philologist. A central mystery in The Children of Hurin is whether Morgoth truly has the power he claims: "The shadow of my purpose lies upon Arda, and all that is in it bends slowly and surely to my will."

[Lalwendë]

You have to question just how any writer would cope with the enigma that is Tolkien and his style. He continues to confound us from beyond the grave. Children of Hurin is a whole new thing as far as he's concerned. In stark contrast even to some of the darkest points of Rings, in that work we see a wholly different Tolkien - one who does not think of Light, of Hope or of Joy. Then you read some of the more esoteric writings such as Osanwe Kenta and you realise he had some incredibly peculiar ideas hidden away. What else is there?

Then you also have his incredibly mercurial character - for every bold statement in a letter there is another which refutes it. He was at once a serious academic in a closed world and at the same time, a wicked joker given to ASBO-inducing pranks. He loved ancient literature and at the same time gorged on contemporary fiction. He read both The Times and The Observer.

How would another writer cope with this unique author's wildly varying tone, vision and style? Could a non-British writer cope, given the subtle native nuances which his work is infused with? Would the new writer's personal vision deeply affect any new stories?

And finally, are we being just like Tolkien's stagnant, decaying Elves, wanting to constantly go back to the past and read more stuff about Middle-earth, when if we have learned anything from reading his work, surely we should all be forging ahead and founding new worlds?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Then you also have his incredibly mercurial character - for every bold statement in a letter there is another which refutes it.

How many examples of letters contradicting each other can you provide? Or would you like me to challenge you with 10, 20 such statements, and you find where they are contradicted? The letters only reflect the stage of the work in progress, and ocasionally we may find some pen slip -but that happens even with the final work.

[davem]

Perhaps Tolkien's creation was really the last of the Saga genre, rather than the first of the modern fantasy genre. And I think that's the problem with most fanfic - its written by people who read Tolkien in the wrong way. What I mean is that too many of them read Tolkien's stories as 'fantasy' novels, when in reality they belong with works like the Kalevala, the Eddas & the Icelandic Sagas. Anyone who is familiar with Saga literature would recognise CoH as pretty typical of that genre -in both substance & style. Most fanfic feels wrong because it is written in the wrong 'style' & forced to conform to the standards of modern fantasy. Anyone attempting to write a convincing M-e story would have to be steeped in the Sagas, & forget completely any fantasy (in fact any 'novels') they had read. Actually the closest thing I've read to CoH is Poul Anderson's 'The Broken Sword'. Maybe, just maybe, Anderson could have done it, but Anderson's dead.