Did JRRT encourage new ME stories?

[drigel]

Just as I hit the quote button to reply to drigel's post about this thread jumping the shark, his post disappears!

The reason I put in the space that asks for a reason for deletion: manners

I have never wanted to offend anyone here. My hackles have been raised enough to warrant my self imposed exile. I havent lightened up yet. Im a purist, I suppose.

So, I named a person from this forum who has garnered accolade after accolade for the quality of his fanfiction, the mighty Mithadan, whose Tol Eressëa

So says the BDner's. Good enough quality, I suppose. And then the 20-40 other ME fanfic sites will support their hero. We can all have them fight Sparticus style at MSG. The winner will recieve a chat squirrel with oak cluster flourish. Then the ME mythology will take it's rightfull place somewhere, but well underneath, The Matrix, D&D, Star Trek\Wars and L Ron Hubbards alien invaders who like to get it on with with Australopithecus africanus women like the freaks they are. Then the pantheon of knock-off mythologies will be complete, amen. We are all free to do what we want, or not.

You see, I believe Davem's point is just that: if there was something that good out there, we would all have already heard about it, read it, and petitioned the Estate for endorsement. Thing is (for folks like me), unless you follow, contribute or participate in fanfics, it's really not that interesting or compelling. And if we read the whole thing, it's because we want to be polite. Because in reality, after about the 2nd or 3rd paragraph, we have completely checked out. Why? The author isnt Tolkien. As is the nature of these things, the product is never as good as it was fun to write.

go figure

[Child of the 7th Age]

Drigel,

Why do we have to be in this much of a hurry? People are too impatient. We’re not talking about something that starts and finishes in our lifetime. It’s a process that will sort itself out over hundreds, possibly thousands of years. Most of these retellings will be garbage, sinking to the bottom unread and unlamented. Maybe three percent will be worth a read. No one can be sure if any of those will be worth remembering. But, over 500 years, my bet is that someone will come up with something that actually touches some hearts and minds.

“Successor?” Ugh! Tolkien has no “successor” because he is unique. If crowning a “successor” is our only choice, I defer to Davem and throw the whole thing in the trash.. Again, I don’t think it’s that simple. Sagas and myths are normally told and retold from different perspectives over a very long time. Thomas Mallory, Alfred Lord Tennyson, T.H. White, Charles Williams, Vera Chapman, Kevin Crossley-Holland, Marian Zimmer Bradley and a host of others drew on the same body of Arthurian stories, each expressing them in a different way. I believe the same will eventually happen with the Legendarium.

Davem is wise in saying that the Legendarium is closer to saga than fantasy. I also agree with Bethberry on Mithadan. His writing at least points in the right direction. Mithadan’s stories feel like history written at some point in the past.

Since Tolkien stands at the end of the tradition of Saga, Davem suggests it would be impossible for latecomers to latch onto the tradition, and continue it on. I’m not so sure. Many readers fell in love with the ancient sources after reading LotR and ended up going back and devoting their lives to studying medieval languages or history or literature. I would guess about a third of medievalists teaching in colleges and unis today in this country owe some debt to Tolkien. As readers of LotR, these individuals were able to see beyond the veneer of "fantasy" and reconnect with that older heritage. If that recognition exists,it may be possible to continue with the tradition in written form. Not an exact replica, which would be impossible, but something that captures the spirit of the thing. I have never read any of Verlyn Flieger’s imaginative fiction. Just curious what tone is used in those.

All this assumes that people still care about Middle-earth 500 years from today. If they still care, they will retell and expand. The alternative is to think of the Legendarium as a series of very specific novels and poems, with no possibility of expansion.

Ironically, the one person who has done more than anyone to ensure that people think of the Legendarium as an expanding world rather than a series of discrete works with strict borders is Christopher Tolkien. Without Silm, without HoMe, without UT and Children of Hurin, Tolkien would look much more like a "conventional" author, and people would respond accordingly. There would be far fewer people who get the bug to retell the tale and to explore the hidden recesses of Middle-earth. By showing us more of what was in his father's mind, Christopher has actually helped writers break through to a wider Middle-earth. He has given us a tiny glimpse of the hidden vistas and distant mountains that Tolkien loved to put in his stories. If there are retellers of the future, it will because of Christopher’s very hard work, and I am extremely grateful for that.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

“Successor?” Ugh! Tolkien has no “successor” because he is unique. If crowning a “successor” is our only choice, I defer to Davem and throw the whole thing in the trash.. Again, I don’t think it’s that simple. Sagas and myths are normally told and retold from different perspectives over a very long time. Thomas Mallory, Alfred Lord Tennyson, T.H. White, Charles Williams, Vera Chapman, Kevin Crossley-Holland, Marian Zimmer Bradley and a host of others drew on the same body of Arthurian stories, each expressing them in a different way. I believe the same will eventually happen with the Legendarium.

And I would suggest that the aformentioned authors' points of view regarding the Arthurian Cycle are as disparate as any in literature. Compare T.H. White's 'The Once and Future King' to Zimmer-Bradley's 'Mists of Avalon': save for the same general characters and fundamental plot, they might as well be talking about two separate epochs, so dissimilar are the treatments (personally, I've always favored White to any of those you mentioned, save perhaps for Malory).

So the point I am making is, when one is speaking of a successor to Tolkien, would the inference be that such a personage be chosen to ape Tolkien's style? I would suggest that such a treatment, even if it could be done plausibly and with much attention to detail, would render the work to be utter mimicry. Like the much repeated elements of the Arthurian Cycle, an author should be allowed the latitude to impress his/her own style on the tale rendered, lest it become a mere charade.

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

Since Tolkien stands at the end of the tradition of Saga, Davem suggests it would be impossible for latecomers to latch onto the tradition, and continue it on. I’m not so sure. Many readers fell in love with the ancient sources after reading LotR and ended up going back and devoting their lives to studying medieval languages or history or literature. I would guess about a third of medievalists teaching in colleges and unis today in this country owe some debt to Tolkien. As readers of LotR, these individuals were able to see beyond the veneer of "fantasy" and reconnect with that older heritage. If that recognition exists,it may be possible to continue with the tradition in written form. Not an exact replica, which would be impossible, but something that captures the spirit of the thing.

I am of the same mind as Child (or would you prefer 7th Age?). There is certainly an unlimited market for all-things-Middle-earth (why else would 'The Children of Hurin' -- a rather tedious rehashing of an excerpt from the Silmarillion -- manage to reach the top of the New York Times Bestseller List?). The Middle-earth chronicles are fast passing onward from a classic novelization of the fantasy genre into the rarified realm of such oft-retold tales as can be found in the Arthurian or Charlemagnic cycles. Face it, there are more Middle-earth roleplaying stories, novellas, games, fan-fics, etc. on more forum sites than all other such attempts combined, then trebled, then multiplied by a google complex.

It is not much different than the genesis of the Arthurian cycle, is it not? There is the initial germ of truth, and it passed through many hands in Anglo-Saxon England, made its way over the Channel to be enhanced among the troubadours, found its way to the trouvere Chretien de Troyes, then was diffused throughout Christendom (Germany, particularly), and finally passed back over the Channel to be reinvigorated by Malory.

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

All this assumes that people still care about Middle-earth 500 years from today. If they still care, they will retell and expand. The alternative is to think of the Legendarium as a series of very specific novels and poems, with no possibility of expansion.

Precisely. We are perhaps too close to the original author to conceive of an expanding Arda that will not smack of gimmickery or pulp-fiction rip-offs. But a century from now, or two? I would like to relate a story if I may...

Having finished reading E.B. White’s Charlotte’s Web with my six-year old daughter (complete with the accompanying tears when the loquacious grey spider sadly dies), we then decided to embark on a journey of a lighter vein by reading The Hobbit. I must say that a book I have long used just for reference material and for scholarly debate (whether or not you consider the book strictly canonical), has, through the eyes of a precocious and imaginative first grader, renewed my sense of wonder. It has brought back fond memories of the first time I sat enthralled in this sublimely simple tale, and likewise has so enchanted my daughter that she believes the events in the book actually happened once on a time. I asked her if Hobbits were real, and she merely looked at me in that Oh-dad-is-so-daft manner and replied, “Of course Hobbits are real, silly, because I can fly!”

Since the story had such an effect on her, it is likely she will continue to immerse herself in Middle-earth as she grows older, and might possibly read Tolkien's tales to her children and they to there's and so on. Eventually all original copyrights fail, and a story that spans generations, like The Hobbit or LOTR, will pass into the public domain. Who can say what will happen then?

[davem]

Just before I get off on me hols I just wanted to add something:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

So the point I am making is, when one is speaking of a successor to Tolkien, would the inference be that such a personage be chosen to ape Tolkien's style? I would suggest that such a treatment, even if it could be done plausibly and with much attention to detail, would render the work to be utter mimicry. Like the much repeated elements of the Arthurian Cycle, an author should be allowed the latitude to impress his/her own style on the tale rendered, lest it become a mere charade.

The style/language associated with M-e is Tolkien's own, & in a strange way the tales, for me have to be told in that style, using that language. The style is an essential part of the tale being told. Hence my sudden feeling of 'NO!!!' when on reading Mith's tale of Eressea last night I came across 'Pengolodh snorted'. Elves do not 'snort'. Well, Tolkien's Elves don't. Come to that, I read one of the Downs RPG's long ago, in which a character had to run home for 'Lunch'. Now, lunch is wrong. 'Luncheon' is pushing it. 'Nuncheon' might work for a midday meal, but Hobbits would have Dinner at mid-day. Breakfast, dinner, tea, supper. That's what Tolkien's models in Warwickshire & Berkshire would call them. Hobbits, in short, never, ever have 'lunch'. Even something as trivial as that will jar some of us out of the story.

Anyway, I have to rush. Try & manage without me

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

Hobbits, in short, never, ever have 'lunch'.

I am not sure I follow; the term lunch is used several times in LotR in regards to the hobbits.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Davem

Hobbits, in short, never, ever have 'lunch'. Even something as trivial as that will jar some of us out of the story.

Originally Posted by A Long Expected Party

There were three official meals: lunch, tea, and dinner (or supper). But lunch and tea were marked chiefly by the fact that at those times all the guests were sitting down and eating together.

Originally Posted by Three's Company

Folco went home after lunch, but Pippin remained behind.

Originally Posted by Three's Company

After lunch, the Sackville-Bagginses, Lobelia and her sandy-haired son, Lotho, turned up, much to Frodo’s annoyance.

Originally Posted by Three's Company

‘The road goes on for ever,’ said Pippin; ‘but I can’t without a rest. It is high time for lunch.’

Originally Posted by Three's Company

After a rest they had a good lunch, and then more rest.

Originally Posted by A Shortcut to Mushrooms

It was now past mid-day, and they felt it was high time for lunch.

. . . all of which only goes to show that no one should be too hasty in declaring himself or herself an infallible judge of Tolkien's style. Though for what it's worth (which is probably not much), I do agree that 'Pengolodh snorted' is unsuitable.

Now you may go back to endlessly debating literary pseudo-questions.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Drigel,

I've made just 5 posts here out of 240, and it seems I'm already in hot water! I am sorry if the wording of my posts upset you but we hold different opinions on the long term fate of the Legendarium. As I said before, absolutely no one knows what is going to happen 100 or 500 years from now. You may be the one who is closer to the mark than I am. My opinion (and it is only an opinion) is that there will be people trying to retell this story. Tolkien's Legendarium, his total body of writings, is so different from most contemporary novels (even the very best of the best) that I believe its future course will also be different.

"Software engineers" for Tolkien? Five hundred years ago, printed books were just getting their start. Another five hundred years in the future and there will likely be no software engineers. Very few people in the year 1500 could have predicted the computer and the internet, and I think we also can not predict the shape of things over such a long span of time.

I am not the only one who feels this way. I recently attended a session which involved grad and undergrad students and one scholar from a nearby univerisity who had publshed several books investigating the medieval sources and connections of the Legendarium. There was a great deal of discussion on the earlier tradition of Arthurian literature, and whether Middle-earth could eventually evolve down a similar path, given modern modes of dissemination of stories. Like the present forum, the participants couldn't totally agree but there was a serious and respectful hearing given to the views on both sides.

Regarding the nature of this site, there is no fanfiction here. There is a separate older BD site which was used for fanfiction. It lies virtually dormant. Less than five pieces have been added there in the past year. There are RPGs on the main site. The RPG sections used to be quite active but for a variety of reasons (Werewolf games, mods who've pulled back a bit, fewer new posters) it is quieter of late. A few stories plod quietly forward. If you count up recent posts, most of the activity lies in Books (and Mirth). This is a Books site in origin and at its heart. I do not see that changing, nor do I want it to change.

I think that if there is a general "sagadarium", that JRRT created, it's the genre of modern fantasy. It's out there. You should try it. Writing it, I mean. It's tough, Ill warn you. You can spend years and years studying, perfecting, honing your mind to become an author of fiction or fantasy. Or, you can spend years and years on the internet being a JRRT monkey. woo hooo grab the twinkies....

There were authors writing fantasy like Morris and MacDonald long before Tolkien. However, he certainly sparked more creativity in the field. And most contemporary fantasy writers owe an enormous debt to Tolkien. Fantasy is not one thing -- there are so many types and forms that it is difficult to generalize, and this would take a very different thread. My only problem is your last sentence. You can't assume anyone who takes the opposite side in this argument is a "JRRT monkey". (Ouch, that hurts!) Just for the record, I have never written a fanfiction in my life, and I am no fantasy writer. I've spent plenty of time with RPGs but those are a different creature, and it is all for fun. However, I do have "serious stuff" in print in history and library science so I am hoping that disqualifies me from the heinous sin of being a "JRRT monkey".

[davem]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

. . . all of which only goes to show that no one should be too hasty in declaring himself or herself an infallible judge of Tolkien's style. Though for what it's worth (which is probably not much), I do agree that 'Pengolodh snorted' is unsuitable.

Now you may go back to endlessly debating literary pseudo-questions.

Yes, sorry - I was due to rush off for a bus. However. 'Lunch' is a middle-class term. Most Hobbits are not middle class. Actually, out of all the quotes you give 'lunch' is a term used by the narrator - apart from the single use by Pippin. I still say that the average Hobbit would not use the term, & would prefer 'dinner' - unless they were 'putting on airs'.

However, I shall be more careful with my examples in future.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by davem

The style/language associated with M-e is Tolkien's own, & in a strange way the tales, for me have to be told in that style, using that language. The style is an essential part of the tale being told. Hence my sudden feeling of 'NO!!!'

Hmmmm...and which actual Tolkienic style would you deign to be acceptable? The archaic and solemn idiom of the Sil and CoH, or the more modern modes of speech presented in LotR? Would you even consider the lighter, fairytale quality of The Hobbit, or eschew it as non-canonical (even though without the success of the Hobbit, we should never have heard of the good Professor)? You are putting a succeeding author(s) in a position to fail by forcing them to mimic a famous and well-regarded author, rather than allow the new author the courtesy of offering their own style in describing whichever piece of Middle-earth lore they are endeavoring to expound. To me, it sounds like you would spend most of your time critiquing the author's mode of speech and literary style, rather than the actual story presented.

Certainly, there are morals and general cosmological and chronological principles that would be sacrosanct; Middle-earth is, after all, an ethical universe. But there are other voices in Middle-earth, not merely the Hobbits who compiled the Redbook of Westmarch. For instance, would the tone and manner of a Middle-earth piece be different if it were offered by, say, an Easterling bard who heard of the great defeat of his countrymen during the War of the Ring, but from second-hand accounts of returning warriors? Assuredly, the tone would be solemn, but would it necessarily mirror the cadences and dialects occuring in Tolkien's presentation of Western Middle-earth civilization?