Locations of certain places

[Galin]

And according to Treebeard's chant at least, Dorthonion (Tol Fuin) is included in the lands under the wave.

In any event this island also appears on the map published in The History of Middle-Earth series.

[Elmo]

And according to Treebeard's chant at least, Dorthonion (Tol Fuin) is included in the lands under the wave.

Has Treebeard gone for a swim to find out?

[Galin]

Not to forget Tol Morwen:

'... nor ever thrown down, not though the Sea should drown all the land. As indeed after befell, and still the Tol Morwen stands alone in the water beyond the new coasts that were made in the days of the wrath of the Valar. But Húrin does not lie there, for his doom drove him on, ...' JRRT The Wanderings of Húrin

[Rumil]

Hi all,

an old, but still good (or at least funtional!) link posted originally by Mithadan show a superimposed Beleriand and Anor,

see here

and the relevant thread here-

Is it ALL gone?

anyone care to comment on the bogusness or otherwise of the Himling-Himring-Taur-nu -Fuin concept?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I have been wondering. . .If Beleriand was indeed placed as on the map that David Day uses, would that not mean that Hithlum would be somewhat arctic?

If the climate of the Shire was pretty much like the English (maybe less rainy) then Hithlum must have been like Greenland or at least Iceland. . . .

[Rumil]

Hi Galin et al,

you got me curious about Himling, so I had a quick Wiki and found

^ Most canonical maps give the Island's name as Himling, but this spelling is erroneous: it was originally a name used by J. R. R. Tolkien for the Hill itself, later replaced by Himring. The Island appears only once on an early map for The Lord of the Rings and is labeled Himling there. Since the map was later than the change, Christopher Tolkien decided to retain this spelling onto his map for the Unfinished Tales (included also into recent editions of The Lord of the Rings). But in a rough note, which is contemporary with J. R. R. Tolkien's map, the Hill itself is called Himling, suggesting that the Isle's name is an equal slip. See The Treason of Isengard, p. 124 and note 18, and Unfinished Tales, note on the map in Introduction.

I looked in the UT intro and found that CT says that Himling was on his father's sketch map and his own first draft and says that Tol Fuin in somewhere to the West (though doesn't say whether it did appear on JRRT's sketch).

So this shows that Himling was at least sketched by JRRT but not, as you say, published by him. Does anyone have access to The Treason of Isengard quote?

I guess this point is quite crucial for would-be Middle Earth cartographers!

[Galin]

The Himling text and the early map drawn by JRRT appear to date about 1940.

The external history implies that Himring was the later form of the name for the hill. Christopher Tolkien notes that Himling was the earlier form of Himring in his introduction to Unfinished Tales (about the map), or for example, see the Hill of Himling in The Lay Of Leithian, and commentary: 'Two new elements in the geography appear in this canto: the Hill of Himling (later Himring) rising in the east of the Gorge of Aglon (2994)'

It appears Christopher Tolkien drew the general map published in the First Edition (he made it in 1953), but this detail got left out for some reason. Then the poster-map comes around years later, about which Tolkien added details: 'She [Pauline Baynes] consulted with Tolkien, who sent her a marked photocopy of the general map, as well as additional names to include and advice on a few points of topography and nomenclature...' Hammond And Scull RC

And later we have the detail appearing on the map made for Unfinished Tales of course.

[Rumil]

Hi Galin,

thanks for the detailed information, fascinating but frustrating stuff!

Of course Christopher has the right to add to JRRT's work, but it seems he might not have been well-advised to do so here in light of the comments that all remained of Beleriand was Lindon and Tol Morwen, creating a definite inconsistency.

Still, I wonder if the location of Himling could still be 'correct', while recognising that it was less of an island and more of a hazard to shipping! This could still allow the inter-relationship of the Third age and First Age maps to be determined accurately without requiring additional real estate.