Is THIS how you imagined the vampires?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Rather than comparing white and black or light and darkness, and equating these with good and bad, what Tolkien does is set up the contrast of Light and Unlight, neither of which require either brightness or darkness, black or white.

The fact that there are some nuances and exceptions doesn't refute the idea, especially considering letter #144, which I previously quoted. The fact that we have a Boromir or a Denethor, or whatever other "gray" character, doesn't mean that there is no morality, or good characters. And as far as your statement that light and unlight don't require brightness or darkness, black or white, I really don't see what base there is for this in Tolkien's work. Plus, the term unlight doesn't even appear in LotR or Hobbit, so it hardly constitutes a motive, being restricted to the Silmarillion.

[Sir Kohran]

Morthoron, there's enough examples on here now to show that Tolkien equating light with good, dark with evil was anything but consistently shown!

Maybe. But there are many more examples that show that Tolkien generally equated white/light with good, black/shadows with bad. It's an idea that he constantly used, and not just in LOTR - for instance, when good Fingon dies, his white helmet is broken in a white flame by evil Gothmog's black axe. Whilst there may be exceptions to the rule, the rule was there and was generally prevalent - white things are mostly good, black things are mostly bad. Heck, just looking at the cover of LOTR in front of me, the Ringwraiths have jet black cloaks. It's a common motif throughout the story.

the bright flames at the heart of Mount Doom

I must disagree.

At first he could see nothing. In his great need he drew out once more the phial of Galadriel, but it was pale and cold in his trembling hand and threw no light into the stifling dark. He was come to the heart of the realm of Sauron and the forges of his ancient might, greatest in Middle-earth; all other powers were here subdued.

Whilst the flames might be bright, the cavern they inhabit is dark and black.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Raynor

The fact that there are some nuances and exceptions doesn't refute the idea, especially considering letter #144, which I previously quoted. The fact that we have a Boromir or a Denethor, or whatever other "gray" character, doesn't mean that there is no morality, or good characters. And as far as your statement that light and unlight don't require brightness or darkness, black or white, I really don't see what base there is for this in Tolkien's work. Plus, the term unlight doesn't even appear in LotR or Hobbit, so it hardly constitutes a motive, being restricted to the Silmarillion.

Yes it does refute the idea that black=evil and white=good I'm afraid. It cannot be a rule if there are exceptions to it, and significant exceptions at that. It clearly was not a fixed rule to the writer as he broke it many a time - quite likely to tell the reader something along the lines of 'you must be on your toes here, this is no simplistic nursery tale' and to shock the reader who mistakenly thinks along those lines

What's more I'm pleased that Tolkien did this as it saves him from accusations of racism.

Light and Unlight refers to what the real heart of good and evil is in Tolkien's creation. The Light is holy, the Unlight is the absence or negation of that. Neither are tied to anything so 'surface' as mere colours.

And who says that because Tolkien is not simplistic we don't have good characters? Not me. Nor is that what is being discussed.

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

I must disagree.

At first he could see nothing. In his great need he drew out once more the phial of Galadriel, but it was pale and cold in his trembling hand and threw no light into the stifling dark. He was come to the heart of the realm of Sauron and the forges of his ancient might, greatest in Middle-earth; all other powers were here subdued.

Whilst the flames might be bright, the cavern they inhabit is dark and black.

Don't you think that this is a great example of how something supposedly bright (and therefore good) like flames might not actually be bright in the deeper sense of Light? It's a fabulous paradox. Not only that, but the immense Unlight of the place sucks the Light from the Phial. Awesome.

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Anyway, at best this black/white thing is yet again a trivial matter aside from the main topic of this thread and serves little purpose to discussing vampires apart from maybe a wish to pedantically pick apart people's posts because not everyone can add anything more worthwhile to the topic. If you are bored then start a new thread please. Sorry, harsh, but it's getting tiresome that every thread gets hijacked/trolled like this by one or two folk - examples etc are given but if you choose to discount them because there is an N in the month then there isn't a lot of point discussing side issues as it's not that delightful illuminating madness you sometimes get on here but more arguing for the sake of 'winning'. I'm going to have to start putting people onto 'ignore' for my own sanity soon or ask you to kindly go outside and set your dogs on davem in the playground, it causes less mess

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Now back to what Bethberry said about Dorien Grey - that's interesting as I often saw this as similar to the idea of vampires somehow needing to feed in order to maintain their youth and good looks. Of course Elves fade away eventually left to their own devices in Middle-earth and I often wonder if what Galadriel did in setting up and running Lothlorien was an attempt to 'keep young and beautiful' by putting all that firey fea into her Art instead of letting it burn her up.

I'm also starting to wonder about the possibility of a vampiric nature to Sauron with his once-upon-a-time ability to look incredibly beautiful and in so doing to seduce the Elves of Eregion. That certainly reminds me of Dracula...