Christopher Tolkien to finish lost Middle Earth novel

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Now about the same thing in Finnish Kalevala happens after Kullervo after learning his deed with her sister and her fate has returned to his old homeplace and finds everything deserted and empty and then his mother's voice from the grave tells him to go to the wild and search for the maidens of the forest to take care of him - like going back to Nargothrond where it would be safe. And Kullervo like Túrin declines the offer.

In Finnish Kalevala it is told this way.

Shortly and not actually translated but just described...

The first paragraph:
Kullervo, son of Kalervo took his dog with him and went to the wilds. After a short trek he came to the place where he had "marred the maid, spoiled the one her mother had brought to a life".

The second:
The grass was wailing and the flowers were groaning for the misdeed. No young grass would grow or heaths blossom there as it was a dark place where the maid had been marred, the one mother had brought a life was spoiled.

The third:
Kullervo takes his sword and looks at it, turns it around and asks it questrions and thinks. Asking then from it whether it would eat the guilty flesh, drink the vile blood?

The fourth:
The sword thought about the mind of the man, getting into what he was thinking. answered with the words: "Why shouldn't I eat gladly, eat the guilty flesh and drink the vile blood? I eat the flesh of innocents and drink the blood of those with no vice as well."

The fifth:
Kullervo, son of Kalervo set the hilt of the sword to the ground and brought the edge of it to his chest. He threw himself to the sword. There he met his death.

So no Glaurung here but things at the level of structure, minor details and motive bearing a lot of resemblances indeed.

I must commend you on an excellent post, Nogrod. I would add to your rep points, unfortunately the forum is not allowing me to do so currently.

Humorously, this information ties in exactly with a point I was making in another thread; in fact, I feel like quoting your entire post and placing it in the other thread.

[davem]

And the award for first cash in goes to http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sources-Ring...5307543&sr=8-7

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by davem

And the award for first cash in goes to http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sources-Ring...5307543&sr=8-7

Perhaps if they used a George MacDonald book (or even Andrew Lang) for a Tolkien source it would make more sense. There are direct references to MacDonald's work in the Hobbit, but I can't recall Tolkien ever mentioning Eddison. As far as 'The Worm of Ouroboros', there are too many words and not enough periods. Eddison loved his sentences so much he could never finish them. His naming conventions leave something to be desired as well (not to mention the book takes place on Mercury and features gods from the Greek pantheon). Bah!

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

(not to mention the book takes place on Mercury and features gods from the Greek pantheon). Bah!

Has anyone else read Dan Simmons' "Ilium"? The idea of the Greek Pantheon in another planet (Mars in this case) sounds ridiculous enough and I do dislike some of Simmons' underlying political philosophy as well... But it was a good read indeed! I do recommend it. Really absorbing and mind-labouring sci-fi indeed with a twist of classical learning on Homer, Shakespeare and Proust. (it starts unpromisingly but after the first hundred pages you're hooked)

EDIT: This maybe a bit off-topic but I couldn't resist to advertise a good read when the idea of "the Gods of Greek Pantheon in a planet of our solar system" was mentioned.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Perhaps if they used a George MacDonald book (or even Andrew Lang) for a Tolkien source it would make more sense. There are direct references to MacDonald's work in the Hobbit, but I can't recall Tolkien ever mentioning Eddison. As far as 'The Worm of Ouroboros', there are too many words and not enough periods. Eddison loved his sentences so much he could never finish them. His naming conventions leave something to be desired as well (not to mention the book takes place on Mercury and features gods from the Greek pantheon). Bah!

Oh, Tolkien was a fan of Eddison - Carpenter mentions he met Eddison at an Inklings meeting (its either in the Biography or 'The Inklings'). Have to admit I liked The Worm Ouroboros for the language & some of the imagery, but found the philosophy a bit iffy. Definitely not a 'source' though.

Checking Hammond & Scull I find: Apparently it was Lewis who invited Eddison to a meeting of the Inklings in February 1943 at Magdalen & he attended a second meeting in June 1944. Tolkien commented

"Eddison thought what I admire 'soft' (his word: one of complete condemnation I gathered); I thought, corrupted by an evil & indeed silly 'philosophy', he was coming to admire, more & more, arrogance & cruelty. Incidentally, I thought his nomenclature slipshod & often inept. In spite of all of which, I still think of his as the greatest & most convincing writer of 'invented worlds' that I have read. But he was certainly not an 'inflluence'. (letters p.258)

Wikipedia has this:

Research done by Paul Edmund Thomas shows that Eddison started imagining the stories which would turn into the The Worm Ouroboros at a very early age. An exercise book titled The Book of Drawings dated 1892 and created by Eddison is to be found at the Bodleian Library. In this book are 59 drawings in pencil which are captioned by the author. The pages of this book contain many of the heroes and villains of the later work. For example there is a drawing entitled The murder of Gallandus by Corsus and another entitled Lord Brandoch Daha challenging Lord Corund (both of these events occur in the book).

As might be expected, significant differences exist between the ideas of a 10 year old boy and the work of a 40 year old man. Perhaps the most interesting change is the change in Lord Gro's character. In the drawings Lord Gro is a hero of skill and courage, while in the book he is a conflicted character, never able to pick a side and stick to it. Another curious change is that in the drawings, Goldry Bluszco is the main hero, while in the book, he is a figure off-stage (in an enchanted prison) for most of the novel.

Many people (including Tolkien) have wondered at, and critiqued Eddison's curious and sometimes inappropriate names for his characters, places, and fictional nations (For example: The Red Foliot, La Fireez, Pixyland, Goldry Bluszco, etc.). The answer appears to be that these names originated in the mind of a young boy and Eddison could not, or would not change them thirty years later when he wrote the stories down (see Thomas, Introduction to the Worm Ouroboros, page xix).

Which explains the 'nomenclature' Tolkien had a problem with.

[Morthoron]

Thanks for the citations, davem. I'll go reread those sections, as I said I couldn't recall Tolkien mentioning him (perhaps it's selective memory in this case). But you're right, Eddison should not be considered a 'source'; perhaps an 'antisource' (ie., what not to do when writing a fantasy).

[davem]

Just a quick update. The 2008 Tolkien Calendar & Diary are now published & they contain three new paintings by Alan Lee & a number of new pencil illustrations. February's painting is the darkly atmospheric 'The Gates of Angband' & depicts the assault of Gwindor & the folk of Nargothrond on Angband, September's is 'The Journey of Morwen & Nienor to Nargothrond', & shows the two & their Elven escort riding through an autumn landscape of reeds & fallen willows under a grey sky. Finally October's picture, 'Mablung Approaches the Doors of Nargothrond' is the picture we were originally offered as the putative cover of the book (the one with Glaurung crossing the Narog) but sans Glaurung for some reason. Personally, I find the latter two in particular superior to many of the ones included in the book, & September's painting in particular is one of the most beautiful paintings of M-e I've ever seen.

Another thing worth pointing up is that the colour reproduction, particularly in the Calendar, is far superior to that in the book, not to mention the pictures are larger & the detail far clearer. In fact, I may just pop out & get meself another copy & some picture frames.....

[Sauron the White]

The removal of Glaurung from the paintings gives added credibility to the comments attributed to Ted Nasmith and other illustrators that the Estate does NOT want "monsters" depicted. This calendar sounds like a winner and I am off to puchase it. Cannot wait to see those new illustrations.