Iceland in Tolkien's Work?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Again, to demand that the discussion be limited to a single source as the wellspring of an entire Tolkien work(s) leaves much to be desired, particularly when whole sections of text cannot be directly ascribed with certainty to any one source, points decidedly towards a different source, or offers a multiplicity of possible sources.

No. If someone started a topic on The Hobbit I don't see what would be gained by loads of people coming on it to point out that Tolkien also wrote Lord of the Rings & Smith of Wooton Major, or one on Tolkien's time at Oxford & having people come on & point out that he also lived at Leeds.

In the same way I realise that one could even find points of similarity with Tristam Shandy, but...

I don't see how that helps us in understanding how the Sagas affected Tolkien's work. Anyone who knows anything about Tolkien knows that the story of Kullervo influenced CoH. Its been discussed many times, as has the influence of Beowulf & Sigurd. I'm not aware that we've spent much (if any) time discussing the Sagas in relation to Tolkien's work. This isn't a thread on 'What influenced Tolkien?' but on 'How did Iceland & its literature affect Tolkien?'

[Lalwendë]

Now play nicely.

I s'pose I have the responsibility to say something as I started the fire...I did start this up to discuss similarities between Icelandic (Norse) Sagas and the life depicted therein to Tolkien's work - specifically Numenor and The Shire, though this does not exclude other Tolkienian cultures if you spot anything interesting there. Mostly as we are reading the Sagas and want to woden (I left the typo in as that's a bit eerie - I meant widen though) discussion beyond oor hoose. Course, a bit of discussion of other associated literature to the Icelandic Sagas can also add to this (things in culture do not exist in a vacuum after all), as can a little discussion of main 'themes' and where else we might better find them (as Bethberry brings up the Atlantean theme which cannot be ignored - now where might this appear in the Sagas?). But the wild horses need some harnesses.

We have got an ace thread somewhere started by Rune about wider Norse influences too: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...ighlight=norse At the risk of me own thread going cold, some of the mythological stuff might be more fruitfully pursued on Rune's thread.

It's not so useful in terms of a topic for things to get too baggy around the edges so that's why I have interjected - not to stop anyome discussing certain stuff but just to say that there is of course the risk that when looking at an influence someone is going to jump up and say 'but such and such' is also an influence!' We know. But I'm not pretending to say that this is THE influence - just want to have a look at it as its not really been done before.

So, have some fun, this is not a thread intended to 'get at' fixing upon a source or a meaning because we know there isn't a specific one - if you've read any of the sagas or know a little of old Iceland and Norse culture have a pop at it. From Fordim's great post on the style to my meanderings about random stuff I pick up on as I begin to read the Sagas, it's good.

Originally Posted by Bethberry

I would like to see Lalaith elaborate a bit on her post about how 'the feeling' of CoH is closer to the Eddic poems than the Sagas. What are those differences between the Eddas and the sagas? And, frankly, I would enjoy a bit more discussion of just CoH before we jump into the literary forebearers. After all, I want to explore the reading experience before I break it apart.

I would like to see more discussion of CoH too before we go into what influenced it or not, I agree. That might warrant its own thread sometime soon? Maybe a Chapter by Chapter in the near future? Hint. Hint.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

OK, I can't help myself, but I'm going to throw another faggot on the fire here and raise the interesting (to me at least) point of significant differences bewteen the Sagas and Tolkien's tales.

The first thing that comes to mind is the bickering. There's plenty of it in Middle-earth to be sure--and by bickering I don't mean open warfare or the ongoing struggle between good and evil, I mean people arguing with one another endlessly, sometimes letting these arguments get out of hand. In the Sagas such bickering almost inevitably leads to real conflict with someone taking offense, feeling as though his pride or honour has been hurt, doing some killing and then we have a blood feud. In Middle-earth this kind of escalation is relatively rare as, inevitably, someone is able to step in and make peace. In the ON these attempts are always there but they always fail. In M-E these attempts usually work out (Gimli and Legolas become fast friends, for example, instead of trying to kill one another; Frodo is able to keep Gollum and Sam from hurting one another). It makes me consider how in Middle-earth the concept of "honour" is oddly absent. Yes, people do honourable things, but they are not willing to immediately hack off someone's head if they are insulted by them. Compare this to a scene relatively common in the Sagas:

Western Icelander: Your grandfather cheated our family when you sold us that lame pig!

Eastern Icelander: Your grandfather dropped the pig on the way home!

Friendly Icelander: Now now, let's just forget about all that...

Western Icelander (to Eastern Icelander): I hear that the Sninafal Troll uses you as his woman every night!*

Eastern Icelander: That's it! I'm getting my axe!

(*This is an actual insult in some of the Sagas...)

Another big difference is in the notion of heroic action. There are numerous times in the Sagas when a hero behaves in a way that one of Tolkien's heroes never would. My favourite example is Grettir. When he hears of a farmer who is being terrorised by Vikings he says that he'll help the farmer for a price. The farmer agrees and when the Vikings next show up Grettir greets them invites them into the barn then shuts them in and burns them alive. He then collects the reward from the farmer and sails away in the Vikings' ship leaving the farmer without a barn and 12 burned corpses to contend with. Aragorn he ain't.

So despite my earlier post saying that I find the notion of northern heroism to be prevalent in Middle-earth, I think I might have to amend that. "Naked will and courage in the face of inevitable defeat" is there, but (what we would consider) silly hang-ups over matters of honour are not, nor are (to our minds) dubious tactics. So while Frodo and Aragorn are "Icelandic" in some ways I think that they are significantly, well, something else as well. And on this point I refer you back to Hookbill's excellent post and his salient reminder that there are many different ingredients at work in the "cauldron of story" that is Middle-earth...

[Nogrod]

I think I understand well what you mean davem, but if you write:

Originally Posted by davem

The question is, were the Sagas a major influence on Tolkien's Legendarium or not

you can't possibly think that discussing about something being a major (or minor) influence can be done without comparison.

But surely I do agree that it's more to the spirit of this thread to discuss more the influnces of specifically Icelandic mythology to Tolkien's work and not bring everything else in as there seems to be a host of threads that have taken those larger views in consideration.

Just to play nicely.

[Nogrod]

Thanks for an interesting opening Fordim.

Originally Posted by Fordim

It makes me consider how in Middle-earth the concept of "honour" is oddly absent. Yes, people do honourable things, but they are not willing to immediately hack off someone's head if they are insulted by them.

I would say - and this is now painted with a quite large brush I know - that Tolkien's concept of honour is that of the Romans and that of the chivalry while Icelandic sagas have a more Homeric notion of honour.

Compare the viking heroes in tha sagas to Odysseus fex. What does Odysseus do when he finds her wife encircled by the suitors? A chivalric (or Roman) honour-code would insist that he takes his place as the master of the house and insists that the "guests" leave immediately after apologising the master and the lady of the house - maybe leaving some compensation as well. But what would and Icelandic hero do - or what does Odysseus? He will butcher them to the last man with no mercy or making deals as his honour has been wounded and that's the only way to clean it.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Fordim

Another big difference is in the notion of heroic action. There are numerous times in the Sagas when a hero behaves in a way that one of Tolkien's heroes never would. My favourite example is Grettir. When he hears of a farmer who is being terrorised by Vikings he says that he'll help the farmer for a price. The farmer agrees and when the Vikings next show up Grettir greets them invites them into the barn then shuts them in and burns them alive. He then collects the reward from the farmer and sails away in the Vikings' ship leaving the farmer without a barn and 12 burned corpses to contend with. Aragorn he ain't.

So despite my earlier post saying that I find the notion of northern heroism to be prevalent in Middle-earth, I think I might have to amend that. "Naked will and courage in the face of inevitable defeat" is there, but (what we would consider) silly hang-ups over matters of honour are not, nor are (to our minds) dubious tactics. So while Frodo and Aragorn are "Icelandic" in some ways I think that they are significantly, well, something else as well. And on this point I refer you back to Hookbill's excellent post and his salient reminder that there are many different ingredients at work in the "cauldron of story" that is Middle-earth...

I agree that charaters such as Frodo and Aragorn are not really Icelandic archetypes (they are not anything really, apart from Tolkienian ), but then Rings is not the most 'Icelandic' of Tolkien's works, and I have not claimed that for it - it is just one influence amongst the many to be found there (this is why it's sometimes better to keep to the point - unvoiced ideas sometimes surface from who knows where...). However the Sil is a different matter. And in there you will find one particular character with the Icelandic notion of honour in abundance and that's Feanor.

The whole story becomes one of his blood feud - and in fact the build-up to this is also very Icelandic in that we have to go through a lot of chapters of background before we get to the 'Silmarillion' main thrust. We have Oaths, Kinslaying, Ship burning, whole cultures relocating overseas...

Now just to add to the original thrust about Numenor, I found this interesting quote from the letters:

Letter No. 227: "The legends of Númenórë are only in the background of The Lord of the Rings ... They are my own use for my own purposes of the Atlantis legend, but not based on special knowledge, but on a special personal concern with this tradition of the culture-bearing men of the Sea which so profoundly affected the imagination of peoples of Europe with westward-shores."

[Lalaith]

Sninafal

*tsk* It's the Svinafell troll of which you speak...it works well as an insult on so many levels because Svinafell means "Pig Mountain".....

[Morthoron]

Perhaps then choosing specific texts (or sequences within the text) wherein the Sagas or Eddas resonate the strongest in Tolkien's work, and then showing correlations to the source material would be the best avenue to divine the Sagas' direct effect on Tolkien's work; rather than attempting to follow a single strand through his entire corpus.