Arwen vs. Galadriel

[The Sixth Wizard]

Movie-wise I was annoyed by Arwen, especially in the 'ranger caught off his' --- no I won't say it! Book wise, Arwen was a bit of a sook who really only made a banner and sacrificed her immortality (pfft, anyone can do that ) Galadriel, however, was a butt-kicking, intelligent, powerful temptress, who could rebel against the Valar and woo dwarves! The latter being the more impressive and sacrificial...

Anywho, Galadriel all the way.

[Raynor]

Arwen's beauty is akin to Luthien's

Originally Posted by Many Meetings, FotR

So it was that Frodo saw her whom few mortals had yet seen; Arwen, daughter of Elrond, in whom it was said that the likeness of Luthien had come on earth again; and she was called Undomiel, for she was the Evenstar of her people.

while Galadriel is simply described as beautiful

Originally Posted by The mirror of Galadriel, FotR

Very tall they were, and the Lady no less tall than the Lord; and they were grave and beautiful.

True enough, the Silmarillion mentions Galadriel as the most beautiful of all the house of Finwe.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Arwen's beauty is akin to Luthien's

while Galadriel is simply described as beautiful

True enough, the Silmarillion mentions Galadriel as the most beautiful of all the house of Finwe.

These quotes will do you no good as this thread is about who we think is the fairest. . .not who is described as being the most beautiful.

and you must not forget that beauty is a subjective thing. . . so even though Tolkien might say that Luthien (and Arwen) is fairest, it might not be the truth for everybody.

Originally Posted by Morwen

Now Rune, even Gimli, he of the "Three Hairs", had to concede that Eomer had a point when the latter pointed out that Galadriel, when seen in Arwen's company, had to take second place

Gimli forgave Eomer of his words, but I do not think that he admited to Arwen being fairer. . . and neither will I !

[Finduilas]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

These quotes will do you no good as this thread is about who we think is the fairest. . .not who is described as being the most beautiful.

and you must not forget that beauty is a subjective thing. . . so even though Tolkien might say that Luthien (and Arwen) is fairest, it might not be the truth for everybody.



Gimli forgave Eomer of his words, but I do not think that he admited to Arwen being fairer. . . and neither will I !

It wasn't forgiving Eomer, it was mearly understanding what you said in your second paragraph. Beauty is a subjective thing.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Finduilas

It wasn't forgiving Eomer, it was mearly understanding what you said in your second paragraph. Beauty is a subjective thing.

exactly! and after realising this he forgave him

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Tolkien might say that Luthien (and Arwen) is fairest, it might not be the truth for everybody.

Hm, but without any image of either of them, what would make particular "ratings" differ? After all, this "universal" standard of beauty does seem to exist in Arda. As for Gimli, it may be that he liked Galadriel more due to their... "history"/empathy. Well, not that I want to spoil your guys' fun .

[Lindale]

They are beautiful in their own rights. Movie and book. Although the part of me thinking that Galadriel is really superior to Arwen in many ways (like the wisdom of many ages) makes me biased in favor of the Lady of the Golden Wood.

[Boromir88]

Finduilas, actually Rune wasn't joking about Galadriel's powerful butt-kicking temptress. Tolkien says Galadriel is the most powerful of the Noldor save for Feanor...must be a pretty good butt-kicker to get that award....

'Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years...and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth.'~Unfinished Tales; History of Galadriel and Celeborn

This might be inconsistant with what is in The Silmarillion, because Christopher remarks that his father revised Galadriel and Celeborn's story a bit more and made them 'more important.'

Now as far as Gimli's fatuation with Galadriel...I think it is a classic example of 'amour courtois' or 'courtly love.' The amour courtois was a popular style of poetry starting in France around the 12th century and going on for nearly 200 years. It is the classical story of a lowly, or 'inferior' person's admiration for an aristocratic lady who he knows is unobtainable. The amour courtois is actually seen as one of the truer love, as it is about the love and admiration between two people. It is not someone who only falls in love with another, because of another term of the time...'chanson de geste' (or 'songs of war.')...meaning someone falls in love because of another person's 'greatness' or 'feets of courage in war.'

Interesting as we can apply Eowyn's 'love' for Aragorn falling under 'chanson de geste.' Eowyn doesn't love Aragorn because of Aragorn himself, she loves what Aragorn is, not who he is. She sees Aragorn as this great man that could give her what she wants...and that is getting her out of 'her cage.' But, as all happy endings go Eowyn finds her own boy toy Faramir.

Where Gimli's admiration for Galadriel is sparked because of Galadriel's beauty and kindness to Gimli, not because he sees Galadriel as someone who could be used to his own glory/benefit. Hence why Galadriel gives Gimli three strands of her hair when he asks, and why she sends Feanor packing.

[Finduilas]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Finduilas, actually Rune wasn't joking about Galadriel's powerful butt-kicking temptress. Tolkien says Galadriel is the most powerful of the Noldor save for Feanor...must be a pretty good butt-kicker to get that award....

My arguement was against the term "butt-kicking". I personally find this, though occasionally amusing, generally degrading and not at all the way I want to see a character. So if Galadriel was "butt-kicking" all the more reason to dislike her.

But also, was she a temptress? I mean really, if she was, she would have taken the ring.

Is it just me, or are people picking who they like better, or who they think are more pretty? It seems as if many are saying which they like better.

Oh, and I beleive it was Sixth Wizard not Rune who first said that.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Hm, but without any image of either of them, what would make particular "ratings" differ? After all, this "universal" standard of beauty does seem to exist in Arda. As for Gimli, it may be that he liked Galadriel more due to their... "history"/empathy. Well, not that I want to spoil your guys' fun .

Even if Tolkien had written "Arwen is the fairest, it is not up for debate", this thread asks you to look beyond that!

Who did you find to be more beautiful in the movies?

And if you can still remember how you pictured the two when reading LotR for the very first time. . .who did you imagine to be most beautiful?

[Raynor]

For me, it's Arwen, in both cases. Interestingly enough, an article in the Psychology Today, argues that there are "objective" reasons for us to like blond girls, that is, we interpret the color of the hair to mean that person is younger. Of course, in this particular case, it couldn't be further from the truth...

Anyway, I would still like to mention that there really is no base for personal comparison, regardless the subjective/objective position, as there is simply is too little information. I presume that, like Gimli, we simply have to set aside our beauty standards, as we cannot apply them, and resort to how their story affected us each. That is, it seems to me that this thread is about who we liked most, not a beauty contest. But nevermind me now

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hmm... it's true that we don't have actually any solid information in the books which would seem to be enough for influencing our personal, subjective views. All we have is "This one was the fairest..." etc. One would say a reader can say who was fairest according to the book, but it seems very strange to think that a reader could form his own personal opinon (it will be interesting to ask f.ex. Rune on what he bases his choice). If we had a picture, then of course, you can say about a picture of Arwen that you think it more beautiful than that of Galadriel (or vice versa ). It may be that people are influenced in their subconscious by some illustration they have seen (not speaking at all of those who saw the film first), but someone may not? And in that case, is it just that people have formed in their mind the images of Arwen and Galadriel based on the narration, and so they in fact choose between their own two creations? Isn't that interesting?

And now to my answer to the main topic question, which will be probably more seen in the contrast of what I said above.. My opinion is formed very clearly. I'm all for Galadriel In the movie as well, but especially and mainly in book. Which brings an interesting question, if the opinion on the movie characters - whatever the actresses may look like - is "pre-influenced" by the choice made on the book characters? (of course only for those who have read the book prior to seeing the film)

[Finduilas]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

Movie-wise I was annoyed by Arwen, especially in the 'ranger caught off his' --- no I won't say it! Book wise, Arwen was a bit of a sook who really only made a banner and sacrificed her immortality (pfft, anyone can do that ) Galadriel, however, was a butt-kicking, intelligent, powerful temptress, who could rebel against the Valar and woo dwarves! The latter being the more impressive and sacrificial...

Anywho, Galadriel all the way.

For the first part, I agree with you entirely.

As to the second part, at least half of it was false. (Butt-kicking? Wooing Dwarves?) Noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(even though that many exclaimation points in a row are gramatically incorrect...)

Not to make an arguement of it, you are free to have your own opinions, Galadriel didn't do much more than Arwen in the LotR, and mostly what she did in the Silm was act like a silly adventure seeker who wanted to see new lands. ( I realise this may sound mean, but don't take it that way. Galadriel's is cool, and I'm not even totally sure which I like better, Arwen or Galariel.)

On an other hand, mayby not THE other hand, I also understand that you may not have been entirely serious when you wrote that, or you may have been a very small amount sarcastic( and I don't mean that sarcasticly(sp))

Am I making myself at all clear? I always feel as if I sound ticked off or fault finding when I write these kinds of posts, while that's not at all how I mean them. I just happen to like silly little debates about nothing.