Morgoth and Doriath

[Morwen]

But surely, if Doriath was indeed his primary target, his intent wasn't merely to annoy or insult Thingol and Melian, who he "hated and feared". I would argue that his intent was to create an opportunity for the later destruction of Doriath...

I don't know that it can be said that Doriath is his primary target. After all, Hurin was captured alived in the hope that he would provide Morgoth with info on the whereabouts of Gondolin and Hurin shortly after his release unwittingly provides Morgoth with a general idea of its location. I don't see how his entry into Doriath and even his initial insults to its rulers can be part of some "Morgothian" plan for its destruction. Unless Morgoth was somehow using Hurin as vehicle to get Nauglamir to Doriath, knowing that its coming would start a chain of events leading to that Kingdom's destruction. But I don't recall this ever being mentioned.

[Rikae]

(in reply to Morwen)
By the fact that Morgoth "sought most" to set Hurin against Thingol and Melian. (Not that he was unhappy to also learn the location of Gondolin!)

I'm not claiming that Morgoth planned events to the last detail; I would assume he expected only that he was sending someone who would make his way into Doriath with evil intent. Actually, though, it would seem more likely that one of the Valar would have enough foresight to know events would occur as they did, than that he would randomly send Hurin out and hope for the best (worst), but something in between seems more likely.

[Raynor]

By the fact that Morgoth "sought most" to set Hurin against Thingol and Melian.

Please, the quote you are apparently referring to mentions that Morgoth distorted the facts concerning Thingol and Melian, not what you have stated.

Actually, though, it would seem more likely that one of the Valar would have enough foresight to know events would occur as they did, than that he would randomly send Hurin out and hope for the best (worst), but something in between seems more likely.

Again, the purpose of sending out Hurin to further his hatred between Men and Elves; a pretty general purpose. As far as foreseeing, it is based on knowledge of the music, of which Morgoth did not have much, as he was too busied at that time with his own distorted theme (even Sauron had more knowledge in that respect), and more less so in terms of the Eruhini.

[Rikae]

No, the quote says what it says - again:

In all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done, for he hated them and feared them.

and makes it quite clear he had more than simply a general purpose. Your quote implies that only taken out of context.
But you may now have the last word, since you've successfully killed my interest in this "discussion".

[Raynor]

Unhappy was the lot of Hurin; for all that Morgoth knew of the working of his malice Hurin knew also, but lies were mingled with the truth, and aught that was good was hidden or distorted. In all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done, for he hated them, and feared them. When therefore he judged the time to be ripe, he released Hurin from his bondage, bidding him go whither he would; and he feigned that in this he was moved by pity as for an enemy utterly defeated. But he lied, for his purpose was that Hurin should still further his hatred for Elves and Men, ere he died.

The quote with "sought most" reffers to what Morgoth let Hurin know. It is further in the paragraph, the bolded part, that deal with his intent in releasing Hurin.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I think perhaps you're underrating the intelligence and power of the self-styled Master of the Fates of Arda. I just read a very lucid amateur review of CoH, which likened Morgoth to a chessmaster playing an amateur: seeing the board a dozen moves ahead, anticipating everything his victim might do and having a counter ready.* I have little doubt that Morgoth knew within a standard deviation where Hurin would go and what he would do.


NB: There is no authentic JRRT text associating Hurin with the Nauglamir: in all versions pre-Christopher Thingol has the Necklace made from the hoard after Hurin departs. Nor did JRRT ever say anything about Hurin being healed.




* I've been that amateur, and it's a horrible, suffocating feeling, like being Kaa the Python's prey.

[Morwen]

Rikae, I am sorry that you are no longer interested in the discussion. However, I also don't think that Morgoth casting Melian and Thingol in a bad light has anything to do with any plan by Morgoth to destroy Doriath.
Doriath's doom is set in motion by Thingol's demand of a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown. Melian points out soon after that he has doomed either his daughter or himself and "now is Doriath drawn within the fate of a mightier realm" (Of Beren and Luthien, Silm) Doriath's doom is effectively sealed once a Silmaril finds its way into Thingol's possession. Hurin or no Hurin, Nauglamir or no Nauglamir, Doriath is doomed.
However, does Hurin provide a catalyst for Doriath's destruction? Evidently so. His gift of Nauglamir sets off the chain of events which will end with Thingol's surviving grandchild living as a refugee by the sea. Is this all some part of grand scheme cooked up by Morgoth? I would argue no.

(1) The quote that you have cited that "in all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done" has to be read in light of the preceding paragraph:

So ended the tale of Turin Turambar; but Morgoth did not sleep nor rest from evil, and his dealings with the house of Hador were not yet ended. Against them his malice was unsated, though Hurin was under his eye, and Morwen wandered distraught in the world.

So despite the fact that Hurin's children are at this point dead, Morgoth is still intent on punishing Hurin. Not only will Hurin grieve the loss of his children but because Morgoth "sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done" he will also be angry and bitter toward the people who at one point sheltered them. Perhaps Morgoth's lies led him to believe that the rulers of Doriath could have done more to protect Turin and Nienor and so not only are Hurin's children dead but they died because Thingol and Melian failed to do enough to prevent it. Potraying the rulers of Doriath in a bad light therefore is not about unleashing Hurin on them as weapon (what could he hope to do to them?) but about compounding his grief over the loss of his children.

(2) I also do not think that Morgoth foresaw the indirect role that Hurin would play in Doriath's destruction. Raynor earlier mentioned that the foresight of the Valar is based on their knowledge of the music and alludes to this passage from Of the Silmarils concerning Morgoth's knowledge of Men - "Little he knew yet concerning Men, for engrossed with his own thought in the Music he had paid small heed to the Third Theme of Iluvatar". In any event Men have the power to shape their fate "beyond the Music of the Ainur". Taking these things together, how can Morgoth foresee what Hurin may or may not do? Fetching Nauglamir, the gift of which is connected to Doriath's ruin, sounds like Hurin's idea to me. I don't know of any passage that suggests that it isn't. And if Morgoth is not involved with the retrieval of the necklace then I don't think that he can be said to have used Hurin to further the destruction of Doriath.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

I have little doubt that Morgoth knew within a standard deviation where Hurin would go and what he would do.

I believe you are overestimating him at that time. The closer we get to the end of the first age, the more we find Melkor in a more fallen state. One of the very reasons why the valar attacked is that Melkor became weak in mind. In Myths Transformed, Tolkien comes close to equating evil with stupid (when discussing how Sauron could not understand Gandalf). He is described as consumed by hate and having no plan but a destruction of everything (including his own "creatures"); at times, Sauron achieves some of the things that Melkor "did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice". Although Melkor started very endowed, we really cannot discard the increasing negative effect of his malice upon all his gifts, his reason first and foremost.