Morgoth and Doriath

[Morwen]

Rikae, I am sorry that you are no longer interested in the discussion. However, I also don't think that Morgoth casting Melian and Thingol in a bad light has anything to do with any plan by Morgoth to destroy Doriath.
Doriath's doom is set in motion by Thingol's demand of a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown. Melian points out soon after that he has doomed either his daughter or himself and "now is Doriath drawn within the fate of a mightier realm" (Of Beren and Luthien, Silm) Doriath's doom is effectively sealed once a Silmaril finds its way into Thingol's possession. Hurin or no Hurin, Nauglamir or no Nauglamir, Doriath is doomed.
However, does Hurin provide a catalyst for Doriath's destruction? Evidently so. His gift of Nauglamir sets off the chain of events which will end with Thingol's surviving grandchild living as a refugee by the sea. Is this all some part of grand scheme cooked up by Morgoth? I would argue no.

(1) The quote that you have cited that "in all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done" has to be read in light of the preceding paragraph:

So ended the tale of Turin Turambar; but Morgoth did not sleep nor rest from evil, and his dealings with the house of Hador were not yet ended. Against them his malice was unsated, though Hurin was under his eye, and Morwen wandered distraught in the world.

So despite the fact that Hurin's children are at this point dead, Morgoth is still intent on punishing Hurin. Not only will Hurin grieve the loss of his children but because Morgoth "sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done" he will also be angry and bitter toward the people who at one point sheltered them. Perhaps Morgoth's lies led him to believe that the rulers of Doriath could have done more to protect Turin and Nienor and so not only are Hurin's children dead but they died because Thingol and Melian failed to do enough to prevent it. Potraying the rulers of Doriath in a bad light therefore is not about unleashing Hurin on them as weapon (what could he hope to do to them?) but about compounding his grief over the loss of his children.

(2) I also do not think that Morgoth foresaw the indirect role that Hurin would play in Doriath's destruction. Raynor earlier mentioned that the foresight of the Valar is based on their knowledge of the music and alludes to this passage from Of the Silmarils concerning Morgoth's knowledge of Men - "Little he knew yet concerning Men, for engrossed with his own thought in the Music he had paid small heed to the Third Theme of Iluvatar". In any event Men have the power to shape their fate "beyond the Music of the Ainur". Taking these things together, how can Morgoth foresee what Hurin may or may not do? Fetching Nauglamir, the gift of which is connected to Doriath's ruin, sounds like Hurin's idea to me. I don't know of any passage that suggests that it isn't. And if Morgoth is not involved with the retrieval of the necklace then I don't think that he can be said to have used Hurin to further the destruction of Doriath.

[Macalaure]

Unhappy was the lot of Húrin; for all that Morgoth knew of the working of his malice Húrin knew also, but lies were mingled with the truth, and aught that was good was hidden or distorted. In all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done, for he hated them and feared them. When therefore he judged the time to be ripe, he released Hurin from his bondage, bidding him go whither he would; and he feigned that in this he was moved by pity as for an enemy utterly defeated. But he lied, for his purpose was that Hurin should still further his hatred for Elves and Men, ere he died.

The way I read this, Morgoth had indeed only a very general aim when he released Húrin. But, since he cast the worst light on Thingol and Melian, because he hated and feared them, it would be quite reasonable for him to assume that, among all realms, Húrin might do his greatest harm to Doriath.

I, too, can hardly believe that Morgoth planned the whole Nauglamír incident. But that does not mean that the release of Húrin has not been done in order to, among other things, further the destruction of Doriath. As has been said before, Morgoth's ultimate goal was to destroy everything, and so, everything he did was meant to further this. Furthering the hatred between Elves and Men in general, and Doriath and Men in particular, by releasing Húrin was one step in it. There was no real long-term plan in what he did, but the intention is more important, I think.

[Morwen]

In LotR there is a passage where Gollum observes that Sauron hated Isildur's city, to which Frodo replies "What does he not hate?" One can easily ask the same of Sauron's predecessor. Doubtless Morgoth wanted Doriath destroyed. I just don't see that as his reason for releasing Hurin. If we are talking about the destruction of Gondolin, that I can see. After all, Morgoth had attempted in vain to get Hurin to divulge the location of that city. Having failed to daunt Hurin into giving him that info, Morgoth releases him (new tactic) and Hurin then unwittingly does what he resisted doing for close to three decades: he gives the Dark Lord a clue as to Gondolin's location. So for me there is better link between the release of Hurin and Morgoth's plans to find and destroy Gondolin than there is between releasing him as a way of somehow furthering the destruction of Doriath.

Originally posted by Macalaure
Furthering the hatred between Elves and Men in general, and Doriath and Men in particular, by releasing Húrin was one step in it.

The rift between Elves and Men (apart from the three Houses of the Edain) had already been achieved by the treachery of Ulfang and co in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Could Hurin, angry and insulting, have widened the rift to include the Edain (or at least the remnants of the Houses)? What could he have done, one man against a powerful Elf Kingdom? Was Morgoth hoping that Hurin's anger all by itself could change Thingol's evolved opinion of Men? If that is what Morgoth was aiming for then it would underline his inability to grasp the concept of pity and his underestimation of the power of Melian. It is pity that restrains Thingol's wrath when Hurin appears in Doriath speaking his "wild and bitter words". It is in Menegroth "defended still by the Girdle of Melian" that Hurin is able to see the truth concerning what has happened to him and his family.
That said, for me Hurin's visit to Doriath has more to do with Hurin than Morgorth.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

"Little he knew yet concerning Men, for engrossed with his own thought in the Music he had paid small heed to the Third Theme of Iluvatar". In any event Men have the power to shape their fate "beyond the Music of the Ainur". Taking these things together, how can Morgoth foresee what Hurin may or may not do?

Because Morgoth is hyperintelligent. Like the chessmaster- he doesn't have a crystal ball, but he can predict with accuracy how his opponent will react in various situations. Simply deduction, not prophecy.

And again- Tolkien never wrote that Hurin brough the Nauglamir to Menegroth. That was CT's invention. Whetehr Morgoth anticipated the specific manner or not, he knew that Hurin would infect Doriath with hate and malice. Hurin by the time he was released had become Morgoth's creature without knowing it- although he thought he was opposing him, doing evil from from evil motives redounds to the Devil's triumph.

[Morwen]

Quote:
"Little he knew yet concerning Men, for engrossed with his own thought in the Music he had paid small heed to the Third Theme of Iluvatar". In any event Men have the power to shape their fate "beyond the Music of the Ainur". Taking these things together, how can Morgoth foresee what Hurin may or may not do?

Because Morgoth is hyperintelligent. Like the chessmaster- he doesn't have a crystal ball, but he can predict with accuracy how his opponent will react in various situations. Simply deduction, not prophecy.

How would hyperintelligence allow Morgoth to deduce that Hurin's visit would be to Doriath's detriment? It doesn't inevitably follow that because Hurin visited Doriath that it would somehow be ruined.

And again- Tolkien never wrote that Hurin brough the Nauglamir to Menegroth. That was CT's invention. Whetehr Morgoth anticipated the specific manner or not, he knew that Hurin would infect Doriath with hate and malice. Hurin by the time he was released had become Morgoth's creature without knowing it- although he thought he was opposing him, doing evil from from evil motives redounds to the Devil's triumph.

If it is your contention that the bringing of the Nauglamir is not properly part of the story, then Hurin's contribution to Doriath's destruction moves from being indirect to non existent.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Oh, come on. It was always part of the story that Hurin brought the hoard of Nargothrond, from which the Nauglamir was made- cursed by the dragon, by Mim, and by Hurin himself.

How could Morgoth see that Hurin would bring evil with him within the Girdle? Because that's how Tolkien's moral universe works. The taint of Melkorism is rather like a virus- see Aldarion and Erendis. Morgoth's seeds and lies take root and grow. Hurin would do evil, or precipitate it, because he was by now an evil creature: Morgoth had made him that way. His actions in Brethil make that perfectly clear. Even a non-hyperintelligent being could see that Hurin's approach to Thingol wouldn't be all warm and fuzzy. And if you accept the 1977 text as authoritative, then Melian's 'healing' necessarily implies that Hurin needed to be healed of something.

[Morwen]

As I stated earlier, I don't regard Hurin's presence in Doriath as the sine qua non of its destruction. Doriath's doom arises through its connection with the Silmaril. If we leave aside the question of the Nauglamir, I don't see how anything that Hurin does or says has any bearing on Doriath's eventual fate and his 'taint' is therefore is irrelevant.