Languages

[Galin]

It think it could be *elen + sar or *eled + sar (or maybe something more specific has come to light recently).

In 1958 Tolkien wrote:

'EL. It is dificult to distinguish 'star' and 'elf', since they are derivatives of the same basic element EL 'star'; as the first element in compounds el- may mean (or at least symbolize) either (...) The Elves were called eledá/elená 'an elf' (High-elven Elda)...' JRRT, letter to Rhona Beare

A bit later in Quendi And Eldar (fairly certainly dated 1959-60)

Note 10
'It is not surprising that the Edain, when they learned Sindarin, and to a certain extent Quenya also, found it difficult to discern whether words and names containing the element el referred to the stars or to the Elves. This is seen in the name Elendil, which became a favorite name among the Edain, but was meant to bear the sense of 'Elf-friend'. Properly in Quenya it meant 'a lover or student of the stars', and was applied to those devoted to astronimical lore. 'Elf-friend' would have been more correctly represented by Quen(den)dil or Eldandil.' JRRT Q&E

In this same text it's noted under *DEL: 'Eldo cannot however be directly descended from *edeló. Its form is probably due to a change *edelo > eledo, following the change in the verb.' Anyway Tolkien seems to have changed his mind later about Elendil, as he wrote in a footnote to a letter...

'This provides the key to a large number of other Elvish Q. names, such as Elendil 'Elf-friend' (eled + ndil), Valandil, Mardil the Good Steward...' JRRT August 1967

Tolkien was not against changing his mind in any case

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Be advised however that Tolkien himself never created a "conversational" Sindarin or Quenya. He was constantly rewriting and revising and changing his mind, more with languages even than in his narratives. (one minor example: in the LR 2d Edition he changed 'omentielmo' to 'omentielvo' to reflect an altered declension). Helge Fauskanger's Ardalambion site represents a neo-Quenya- a synthetic version cobbling together elements of Quenya from different periods in its development, speculation, and outright invention. The same is true of David Salo's "Gateway to Sindarin" (and Salo is often unclear about what's genuine Tolkien and what isn't). According to Carl Hostetter, who ought to know, both sometimes outright contradict Tolkien's writings in order to impose an artificial 'structure.'

The best source for Tolkien's actual linguistic material is the History of Middle-earth, especially Vol V (the Etymologies) and Vol XI (Quendi and Eldar) - although those pieces are twenty years apart, separated not only by the Lord of the Rings but also the Great Language Shift which converted Noldorin into Sindarin. After that, there are the 'major works' published in Parma Eldalamberon (at this writing only works up through the 1920's), and for shorter (and more recent) works Vinyar Tengwar.

*inclines head*

Fair enough, I admit defeat. Another, then: Boromir- "Jeweled Hand"

[Galin]

I doubt 'hand' is involved in Boromir however. Ruth Noel seems to be confusing, for example, -bor in Celebrimbor (which name contains paur 'fist, tightly closed hand') with the initial part of Boromir. I would guess 'jewel' is involved.

In Appendix F Boromir is said to be a 'mixed form'.

I agree with the point regarding conversational Elvish brought up by Mr. Hicklin. I highly recommend Carl Hostetter's article Elvish as She Is Spoke over at E. L. F. for anyone interested.

agreed, Noel is sometimes contradictory, but why would paur, and therefore bor, not be "hand" or "fist"? Your own example, Celebrimbor, is Silver Fist, correct? Yes, mir is "jewel" as seen in "Faramir"- jeweled hunter.

I believe boromir is only "mixed" in respect to quenya vs. sindarin.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by noldon

... but why would paur, and therefore bor, not be "hand" or "fist"? Your own example, Celebrimbor, is Silver Fist, correct?

Paur appears as -bor in Celebrimbor, Tegilbor due to lenition (including the change of -au- to -o- here). In Grey-elven the mutation p to b has no reason to occur in Boromir however. In other words, if this name included paur as the initial element it would begin with a p.

I can't think of any word (attested to date) associated with 'hand', from the time of Etymologies onward, that could work here.

[Galin]

To add, the following is from Hammond And Scull's The Lord of the Rings, A Reader's Companion...

'In Appendix F Boromir is said to be a mixed form (...), that is, containing both Quenya and Sindarin elements (Sindarin boro(n) 'steadfast' + Quenya míre 'jewel').' H&S (partial quote)

And later (they don't even try to explain the first element in Faramir).

'The second element of Faramir is probably the same as that in Boromir, Quenya míre 'jewel'. H&S

This interpretation of Boromir is based on the name as it was interpreted back in Etymologies (part of the Etymologies entry also appears in the H&S entry) under the base BOR- 'endure' (and BORÓN-) where Tolkien refers to the ON word boron (pl. boroni) 'steadfast, trusty man, faithful vassal' and refers to the N. names given to the 'Faithful Men' Bór, Borthandos, Borlas, Boromir. And JRRT adds that the name 'Boromir is an old N. name of ancient origin also borne by Gnomes: ON Boronmíro, Boromíro: see MIR' (and under MIR the name Borommíro is scribbled in).

Though this is earlier stuff it appears that the word boron 'survived', noting that in Cirion And Eorl we find a character named Borondir for example (*boron + ndir). In any case, in the old idea a word for 'hand' was not involved, and as I say, I doubt it was later by the time The Lord of the Rings was published.

H&S note that Arden Smith (generally) advised them on linguistic matters for their Reader's Companion; and were also indebted to Carl Hostetter, especially for his editorial work on Tolkien's essay The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor in Vinyar Tengwar. And although that doesn't mean Mr. Smith or Mr. Hostetter wrote these particular entries, I would say both entries represent just about the best we can do to date, without going too far down the path of speculation anyway, given the information currently available with respect to these somewhat difficult names.

defeat again! so "borondir" is "steadfast friend"? alright, enough of this, back to the original reason for this thread. there is a substantial quenya wordlist at http://home.netcom.com/~heensle/lang...a/engquen.html, but as seen by my mistakes, they may be wrong, misspelled, or misinterpreted. good luck.