Morgoth and Doriath

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

I have little doubt that Morgoth knew within a standard deviation where Hurin would go and what he would do.

I believe you are overestimating him at that time. The closer we get to the end of the first age, the more we find Melkor in a more fallen state. One of the very reasons why the valar attacked is that Melkor became weak in mind. In Myths Transformed, Tolkien comes close to equating evil with stupid (when discussing how Sauron could not understand Gandalf). He is described as consumed by hate and having no plan but a destruction of everything (including his own "creatures"); at times, Sauron achieves some of the things that Melkor "did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice". Although Melkor started very endowed, we really cannot discard the increasing negative effect of his malice upon all his gifts, his reason first and foremost.

[Morwen]

Originally posted by Rune
The fact is that Hurin brings the Naulamir to Doriath and had he not done that. . .well everything could have happened. I know that you wanted to look aside from this, but I don't think it is possible to do so. You cannot just cut the most important part away and say "other than that there is nothing of importance".

That is a point that you'll want to take up with William Cloud Hickli

Originally posted by William Cloud Hickli
And again- Tolkien never wrote that Hurin brough the Nauglamir to Menegroth. That was CT's invention.

Not the only reason, of course. I certainly wouldn't say that Morgoth foresaw the destruction of Doriath as it came to be, no matter how intelligent he was. He didn't even know that the Silmaril sealed Doriath's doom, as far as I'm aware. But, as I said, just because he lacked a clear plan it doesn't mean that furthering the destruction of Doriath, in a general way, was not the main goal.

I think there is no mention that Morgoth expected Hurin to show him the way to Gondolin. He had scouts following him and was more than happy to hear the news, but the purpose of the release remains to further the hatred between Elves and Men. Maybe Hurin's going to Gondolin was more than Morgoth hoped for?

Yes, it's possible that Morgoth may have had such a plan, but from my reading of the text I have to ask "Is it likely?"

As for the Gondolin question I don't think it's coincidence that Morgoth, who knows or at least has good reason to suspect that Hurin knows the whereabouts of Gondolin, has him followed. It certainly wouldn't be unreasonable for Morgoth to assume that Hurin, alone and friendless, might possibly seek out aid from those in the Hidden Kingdom. I don't think that Hurin going to Gondolin is more than Morgoth hoped for. I think it is precisely what he did hope for.

Originally posted by Macalaure
As WCH said, Hurin did manage to cause quite some trouble in Brethil. I don't think it would be farfetched for Morgoth to assume that an angry and insulting Hurin would cause Thingol to think different of the Edain. This wouldn't have caused the ruin of Doriath (not in the actual way it happened anyway), but advanced it - a little.


It's interesting that you bring up Sauron and Gollum and the concept of pity. There are certain parallels between Gollum and Hurin, I think. Both are released from their respective Dark Lord with similar goals: Finding the way to Gondolin (yes, I'm contradicting myself here - for analogy's sake) and causing whatever troubles to Elves and Men, and helping the Ringwraiths find the Ring and causing whatever troubles to the ringbearers. Of course, Sauron's hopes were betrayed more than Morgoth's, but in both cases they were betrayed due to pity (Frodo/Thingol). I have the impression that the inability to grasp the concept of pity is one main trait of evil in Tolkien's world, maybe even in general (but that goes far beyond the scope of this thread).

(1) What trouble in Brethil are you referring to?

(2) I would have to think less of Thingol if one angry man is enough to change his view of an entire people, especially as Hurin at that point can't be said to be speaking for any of the Edain.

(3) I do think pity is very relevant. If Morgoth is indeed relying on Hurin's anger as a 'weapon' then he miscalculates, failing to see that when confronted by the anger of a man who has lost everything, Thingol and Melian might see past that anger to the fact that he has lost everything.

[Beanamir of Gondor]

I'd like to avoid the whole Nauglamir argument that's going on, because I'm the chess amateur William Cloud Hickli mentioned before, and skip back to what the Dark Elf contributed to the conversation a while back.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I think Carcharoth's fate was wound inextricably with the Silmaril, yet so was Huan the hound's doom. Carcharoth was bred by Morgoth to be Huan's bane; therefore, the passage referring to Carcaroth's fate has the further inference of meeting Huan at last in mortal combat. Breaking the Girdle of Melian was due to the Silmaril, and Carcharoth's fate was to meet Huan in Doriath.

One also has to wonder about Melian's awareness of these things. If it were fate for Carcharoth to pass the Girdle, would she have precognition of it: i.e. was it impossible for her to stop it, because she knew it would happen no matter what? She predicted that Beren would arrive in Doriath, so he was not hindered when he arrived, alone and unintentionally trespassing. Much the same, she might have known that Carcharoth was heading into Doriath, but (look out! a digression!) like Beren, he was unwitting in his trespass, and didn't need to be hindered, and wasn't directly attacking the kingdom.
That ties into something Rikae said earlier:

Originally Posted by Rikae

However, does this mean that Morgoth, having the Silmarils, could just stroll into Doriath any time he wanted? There is more to it that a simplistic "get a Silmaril, be more powerful than anybody" dynamic at play, I think. Maybe even a sense of the Silmarils themselves having, in a way, a will of their own, as the one ring does? Or not so much a will, but a destiny?

Morgoth had three Silmarils in his possession for quite a long time, and he didn't just wander into Doriath and attack Menegroth. I think that has quite a lot to do with Beren and Carcharoth (not to draw too many parallels between the two) unwittingly wandering into Doriath, without knowing specifically that they had crossed the Girdle of Melian. They were alone and, for the most part, unarmed. Now if Morgoth, on the other hand, had gathered all his forces and directly attacked Doriath, Melian's Girdle would have been strengthened for war, and she could have held back at least some of Morgoth's forces. It wasn't just one lone Man or Wolf wandering in through the mists.
It's a lot easier for one soldier to slip across the lines than it is for an army to march in. regardless of which war we're talking about.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Beanamir of Gondor

Morgoth had three Silmarils in his possession for quite a long time, and he didn't just wander into Doriath and attack Menegroth.

I believe it has already been mentioned before that Melkor feared for his body, that is why he avoided combat.

It's a lot easier for one soldier to slip across the lines than it is for an army to march in. regardless of which war we're talking about.

I don't think that this analogy is valid. Defense lines can be crossed it there is a lack of awareness, something I doubt can applied to matters of enchantment. The text is rather specific in that respect (emphasis added):

Originally Posted by Of the Sindar, Silmarillion

Melian put forth her power and fenced all that dominion round about with an unseen wail of shadow and bewilderment: the Girdle of Melian, that none thereafter could pass against her will or the will of King Thingol, unless one should come with a power greater than that of Melian the Maia.

Beren passed because fate was on his side:

Originally Posted by Of the Coming of Men into the West, Silmarillion

And one of Men, even of Beor's house, shall indeed come, and the Girdle of Melian shall not restrain him, for doom greater than my power shall send him; and the songs that shall spring from that coming shall endure when all Middle-earth is changed.

A rather similar case has been made for Carcharoth, with the mentioning that the power of the silmaril was a factor in his trespassing.

[Morthoron]

Perhaps Melian's Girdle veiled Morgoth's sight, or more likely, being the wolfish predator he was, Morgoth would have had to exert far more of his own personal power in overcoming the Girdle than merely relying on his minions to circumvent it. Such an extravagant exertion of personal power might have been beyond Morgoth's ability as he had expended it lavishly in previous ages.

P.S. With a grin I note this is my one-hundred and eleventieth post. Cheers to Bilbo!

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Perhaps Melian's Girdle veiled Morgoth's sight

I agree

Originally Posted by Of the Ruin of Doriath

And hearing the words of Melian Hurin stood moveless, and he gazed long into the eyes of the Queen; and there in Menegroth, defended still by the Girdle of Melian from the darkness of the Enemy, he read the truth of all that was done, and tasted at last the fullness of woe that was measured for him by Morgoth Bauglir.

Another interesting aspect of this quote is this: Hurin tastes the fullness of woe. This reinforces the quote I gave regarding the purpose of Hurin's release: to further Melkor's hate of Elves and Men, not to act as weapon in the actual fall of Doriath as it has been argued.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

And hearing the words of Melian Hurin stood moveless, and he gazed long into the eyes of the Queen; and there in Menegroth, defended still by the Girdle of Melian from the darkness of the Enemy, he read the truth of all that was done, and tasted at last the fullness of woe that was measured for him by Morgoth Bauglir.

But Tolkien didn't write that passage. There's no suggestion of any healing at all- this whole business was written by Christopher (in consultation with Guy Kay).

Here however is a passage whose canonicity is if not perfect then still very great:

Who now knows the counsels of Morgoth? Who can measure the reach of his thought, who had been Melkor, mighty among the Ainur of the Great Song, and sat now, the dark lord upon a dark throne in the North, weighing in his malice all the tidings that came to him, whether by spy or by traitor, seeing in the eyes of his mind and understanding far more of the deeds and purposes of his enemies than even the wisest among them feared.

The chessmaster indeed! And it continues

...save Melian the Queen. To her often his thought reached out, and was foiled

In fact, throughout CoH there are mentions of Morgoth's inability to 'see' into Doriath- echoed in Sauron and Galadriel's Lorien. Moreover,

Gondolin still stood, but it was hidden. Doriath he knew, but could not enter yet