A 'darker' Hobbit

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Mercy, don't tease us like that; we Americans won't get the book for a while longer yet!

I know Tolkien grew to despise the style of TH, but I still think it's most astonishing wonderful. Based on what Lal has said about his "3rd edition" revisions thus far, it's probably a good thing he never completed them -- though I would love to have a Hobbit that fit perfectly into the Legendarium, to compare with the one we all know and love.

I've been rereading Tolkien's letters a lot lately (a marvelous volume, that: enlightening about M-E and about so many other things; Tolkien had a lot of wisdom that never made it into his books) and it seems clear to me that he envisioned TH as being part of the Legendarium. Wish I could provide direct quotes, but my volume is not with me at present.

Probably that's the main reason he wanted to revise it so extensively, though; because he viewed it as a part of his Legendarium, but felt that its style was unworthy.

Well, sadly, I've said all that and not expressed an original thought. But all this issue of revision does raise a question to me. Much of the controversy among Tolkienites regarding the (possibly) impending Hobbit film centers around the essential change in tone that PJ or whoever would make. But can it not be argued that changing TH from a light G or PG into a heavy PG-13 is in line with Tolkien's desires? Perhaps the movie (if and when it gets made, which I believe it will) will be much more faithful to JRRT's vision than any would expect.

I cannot wait to get these books and see what Tolkien had in mind for his 3rd edition.

[davem]

As Rateliff points out the main effect is to make Gandalf less 'eccentric' & more like the Gandalf we know from LotR, & Bilbo actually a lot stupider - at one point he comments that the Lonely mountain must be a few days journey away! Bree & the Rangers get a mention, but its the 'rationalising' Tolkien attempts that break the spell to a great degree - the Dwarves leave a bag of instruments in the porch, rather than pulling them out of nowhere, the Trolls are still speak 'cockerney' & there is more development of the journey to Rivendell, in an attempt to match the journey time of the Hobbits & Strider. And the mentions of an 'engine' & a 'pop gun' are gone (of course, removing the 'engine' reference from TH makes the reference to an 'express train' in LotR more glaring & out of place).

Basically, Tolkien begins re-writing the story from the start, but before long he is simply making alterations to odd sentences, & getting himself into more & greater difficulties. Rateliff points out that TH is set in a 'fairytale' world where moonphases & details of time & distance are not really that important, but LotR is a more 'realistic' work & what emerges is that TH could not have been rewritten in the style of LotR without completely destroying the magic.

One of my favourite lines 'less noise & more green' is lost. Interesting addition to the inns of the Shire: The 'All-welcome Inn at the junction of the Northway & East Road. "So called because much used by travellers through the Shire, especially by Dwarves".

Apparently Tolkien gave the manuscript, as far as it went, to a friend, who responded 'Its good, but its not The Hobbit.' Chapter 1 is renamed 'A Well-Planned Party', & the Narrator (irritating or charming depending on your point of view) disappears. In the end Tolkien seems to have lost interest simply because such a re-telling would have meant a total re-write, & ultimately a whole new story. Interesting to read but ultimately a dead end, sadly.

As to the proposed movie adopting a more 'adult' style in telling the story, well, Tolkien couldn't do it without breaking the spell, so I doubt PJ & co could....

Note the different title of Chapter 1 - 'A Well planned Party' as opposed to 'An Unexpected Party' in the original. Clearly the party was unexpected by Bilbo, & so the focus was to be on him as hero of the story. The change to making the party 'well planned' puts the emphasis more on Bilbo as 'victim' of the machinations of others. Bilbo becomes less intelligent in the story, more at the mercy of others.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

One of my favourite lines 'less noise & more green' is lost. Interesting addition to the inns of the Shire: The 'All-welcome Inn at the junction of the Northway & East Road. "So called because much used by travellers through the Shire, especially by Dwarves".

That's pretty grim, actually. It sounds like a cheap motel

I do have to laugh that Tolkien retained his Cockernee trolls. One of the usual criticisms levelled at TH as 'not being part of the legendarium' is the use of the trolls in this way - Flieger even brought this out in support of her own argument against TH being suitable for the legendarium! So clearly Tolkien himself thought that Cockernee Trolls were perfectly alwight.

Makes you wonder - the changes, once you get into them, are not very nice at all. It's like hearing about an ugly motorway being driven through a much loved piece of ancient woodland. Maybe we should stop griping about the style of The Hobbit being so different and hence it not 'fitting in'?

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Originally Posted by davem

As to the proposed movie adopting a more 'adult' style in telling the story, well, Tolkien couldn't do it without breaking the spell, so I doubt PJ & co could....

Well, I don't think the word "spell" would come into play even if PJ gave us a Hobbit that did have cockney trolls and tralalalalling elves.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

Well, I don't think the word "spell" would come into play even if PJ gave us a Hobbit that did have cockney trolls and tralalalalling elves.

But they're only annoying if TH is read in the light of LotR. As part of TH as a stand alone tale (which is what it was meant to be) they fit. Reading Tolkien's attempt to revise TH shows that it can't be done. I'm sure many of those who are looking forward to a TH movie are assuming that it will be in the style of the LotR movies. It probably will be, but it won't be TH as we know it. The assumption, & one that Tolkien shared when he began the revison apparently, is that TH is an 'adult' story like LotR but simply written in a whimsical 'children's story' style. It isn't. The story is what it is. To rewrite it as an 'adult' story & make it fit with the LotR movies will result in something that is 'almost, but not quite entirely, unlike The Hobbit.'

[Sauron the White]

Reading Tolkien's attempt to revise TH shows that it can't be done.

That is one viewpoint. The other is that JRRT simply tired of it and went on to something else .... probably something else which was not finished either. His not completing the rewrite of THE HOBBIT may speak more to his work habits and changing interest in the world of ME than it does that such a HOBBIT rewrite simply cannot be done.

Regardless, all of this certainly will give a sheen of credibility to any efforts by Jackson or other film makers to make a more adult HOBBIT which fits in better to the style and approach of LOTR films.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

That is one viewpoint. The other is that JRRT simply tired of it and went on to something else .... probably something else which was not finished either. His not completing the rewrite of THE HOBBIT may speak more to his work habits and changing interest in the world of ME than it does that such a HOBBIT rewrite simply cannot be done.

You have to read the section to see why he gave up, & why it couldn't be done. The attempted re-write simply doesn't work.

Regardless, all of this certainly will give a sheen of credibility to any efforts by Jackson or other film makers to make a more adult HOBBIT which fits in better to the style and approach of LOTR films.

Possibly. To me it will show they haven't learned the lesson Tolkien learned. I wonder how many of those who want a 'Hobbit' movie actually want a movie in the style of the book, & how many want a 'grown-up' version. It strikes me that those who want such a 'grown-up' version don't actually want a Hobbit movie at all & perhaps dislike the fact that TH is a children's book. TH is a fairy tale, full of fairy tale characters & situations. It can't be re-written in another style. I repeat - the friend who Tolkien lent the manuscript to told him 'Its good, but its not The Hobbit'. And it is 'good' in its own way - not great (& TH is a 'great' book) - but good, or at least interesting. But a movie in that style would not be The Hobbit at all.

To my mind attempting to do what a far more creative person than you attempted & failed to do doesn't lend credibility to the attempts of lesser minds -& I don't want to argue that point: read 'Return to Bag End' & you'll see he did fail to re-write TH in the style of LotR because it couldn't be done - & if the inventor of M-e couldn't achieve that I don't see how anyone else could.

[Sauron the White]

To my mind attempting to do what a far more creative person than you attempted & failed to do doesn't lend credibility to the attempts of lesser minds

Again, you seem to impart JRRT with superhuman almost god-like qualities that no other single human could ever hope to match. If JRRT did not do it then no one can. Nonsense. There are many type of creativity and talent. Some is evidenced in writing of books, others in making of films. To say that one is "far more creative" and to use a phrase like "lesser minds" is simply silly.

JRRT himself felt that LOTR was not a filmable book. Other creative minds proved him wrong.

I will not use such value loaded terms as "lesser" in making that comparison.