The Hobbit in July 2007?

[Sauron the White]

from davem

They are clearly all wrong if they found the LotR movies anything more than standard Hollywood fare.

So yes indeed, everyone marching in the large parade is out of step but Johnny.

[Sir Kohran]

They are clearly all wrong if they found the LotR movies anything more than standard Hollywood fare.

So the millions that praised these films are all wrong just because they disagree with you?

Overblown, dumbed down & tiresome.

Oh yes. Because the bit where Gandalf faces the Balrog is overblown, dumbed down and tiresome. The bit where Boromir dies is also overblown, dumbed down and tiresome. The bit where Frodo pulls Sam out of the river and takes him on the jounrey with him is also overblown, dumbed down and tiresome. The part where the Rohirrim make their last stand at Helm's Deep to be saved by Gandalf and the Rohirrim's arrival is also overblown, dumbed down and tiresome. The point where Sam speaks to Frodo of the despair others have felt and their determination to keep going is overblown, dumbed down and tiresome. The sequence where the beacons are lit on the mountains is also overblown, dumbed down and tiresome. The bit where Theoden and his army sound their horns and charge the Orcs on the Pelennor is also overblown, dumbed down and tiresome. The end of the quest on Mount Doom is also overblown, dumbed down and tiresome. The ending where Frodo says goodbye to his friends and Sam returns to his family is also overblown, dumbed down and tiresome.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

Oh yes. Because the bit where Gandalf faces the Balrog is overblown, dumbed down and tiresome. The bit where Boromir dies is also overblown, dumbed down and tiresome. The bit where Frodo pulls Sam out of the river and takes him on the jounrey with him is also overblown, dumbed down and tiresome. The part where the Rohirrim make their last stand at Helm's Deep to be saved by Gandalf and the Rohirrim's arrival is also overblown, dumbed down and tiresome. The point where Sam speaks to Frodo of the despair others have felt and their determination to keep going is overblown, dumbed down and tiresome. The sequence where the beacons are lit on the mountains is also overblown, dumbed down and tiresome. The bit where Theoden and his army sound their horns and charge the Orcs on the Pelennor is also overblown, dumbed down and tiresome. The end of the quest on Mount Doom is also overblown, dumbed down and tiresome. The ending where Frodo says goodbye to his friends and Sam returns to his family is also overblown, dumbed down and tiresome.

Wow! That's weird. You know, I'd just been making a list of the bits I felt were overblown, dumbed down & tiresome, & you just got them all. Talk about great minds & all that!

[Sir Kohran]

Originally Posted by davem

Wow! That's weird. You know, I'd just been making a list of the bits I felt were overblown, dumbed down & tiresome, & you just got them all. Talk about great minds & all that!

Considering most of those were taken from the books, I guess the book itself is overblown, dumbed down and tiresome.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

Considering most of those were taken from the books, I guess the book itself is overblown, dumbed down and tiresome.

Not one of those scenes is depicted in the movies as they are in the book. The way they are portrayed on screen is overblown, dumbed down and tiresome.

[Sir Kohran]

Originally Posted by davem

Not one of those scenes is depicted in the movies as they are in the book. The way they are portrayed on screen is overblown, dumbed down and tiresome.

Are you suggesting that in the books...

- Gandalf did not face the Balrog and shout 'You shall not pass', the bridge did not break, and Gandalf did not say 'fly your fools' as he was dragged down?

- Boromir was not killed by arrows as he defended Merry and Pippin?

- Frodo never rescues Sam from drowning?

- Gandalf never arrives with the men of Rohan at the break of day to destroy the enemy at Helm's Deep?

- Sam never encouraged Frodo and helped him on his quest?

- The beacons were never lit?

- Theoden and the charge of the Rohirrim on the Pelennor never took place?

- Frodo and Sam did not have a hard time reaching Mount Doom and that Gollum did not fall in the Crack of Doom?

- Frodo did not have a sad farewell to his friends as he left?

- Sam never went back to his family at the end of the book and said 'Well, I'm back'?

I find your perceptions of the books most interesting.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

You mean, considering that PJ was too hamhanded to get even Tolkien's own scenes right, Gawd help us with the ones he made up. Eomer and his 2000 Rohirrim on horseback (NOT as in the book) charging down a ZZ-grade ski slope into a forest of polearms is one of the silliest, most groan-inducing moments in all of film. Boromir's death-speech is nonsense invented to go with the angstified, wimpified film-Aragorn. Sam's near-drowning is literally overbolwn- insanely and tiresomely prolonged for cheap suspense. Sam's trite speech at Osgiliath barely touches on Tolkien's original (on the stairs of Cirith Ungol), and doesn't pass up a single cliche. The beacons sequence looks great, but is preciptated by anabsurd scene of *Pippin* starting them, in line with the total reduction of shrewd, stern Denethor to a dribbling lunatic. The end of the Quest on Mount Doom is a device so old and tired and overused and cliched it's even entered the language- cliffhanger.

And of course we haven't touched on Xenarwen or Elves at Helm's Deep or warg attacks or wizard-fu or moronic, pacifist Ents or the Osgiliation or the cold-cocking of the Steward or the gawdawful Filmamir or sword-swinging Black Riders or shield-surfing or electrocution by Palantir or the disappearance of Arnor or the confrontation at the Gate replaced by anime trolls or dwarf-tossing or belches or PJ's complete lack of comprehension of or regard for any of Tolkien's themes etc etc etc etc etc etc etc..........

[Sauron the White]

William ... I find it revealing that the two scenes you lead with - the charge of the Rohirrim and the death speech of Boromir - have been listed as some of the fan favorite scenes in several polls. I remember one on another Tolkien web site, either board77.net or torc.com in which the Boromir scene was voted as the best scene in any of the 3 films. The beacons scene was almost universally praised (perhaps with exception from the sacred cadre of True Believers) for its beauty and scope.

But of course you are nitpicking at one or two tiles rather than the beauty of the entire mosaic.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Oh, I can nitpick for pages given time. Look, I'll credit PJ (and Shore) for the Beacons sequence itself- unlike some purists I'll forgive him the logistical absurdity and geographical deviation from the book for the sake of sheer visual drama. But why the hell did Pippin light them? Because Gandalf told him to- countermanding the orders of the lawful Lord and Steward! Who didn't want them lit because his character was rewritten (and, yes, dumbed down) to make him a stock-Hollywood demented ogre.

So why not have them lit as Gandalf and Pippin are riding south, as in the book? Because PJ thinks he can "improve" one of the great stories of the 20th century- and in the process push might-for-right in total contravention of the books' moral compass.