how would Tolkien feel about fanfic or RPGs?

[ninja91]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

The former- I believe the unhappy person in question proposed a 'sequel.' The latter, unlike the former, is far beyond copyright protection; and, after all, it can hardly be claimed that Tolkien invented Elves, Dwarves, and dragons! Derivative and ripoffish as it is, Shannara is not exactly Middle-earth, so Brooks can get away with it (not that I'd insult you by putting your work down on that level!)

Do you know whether his anger was directed at people writing stories directly correlated with his works, using his lands, cultures, and history, or was it directed at people writing stories that include merely his races (i.e. elves, dwarves) like authors such as Christopher Paolini and myself? (and many others here, I assume)




I dont want the Fathers of Fantasy working against me...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I think the order and embedded quotes of the last couple of posts has gotten screwed up.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by ninja91

Do you know whether his anger was directed at people writing stories directly correlated with his works, using his lands, cultures, and history, or was it directed at people writing stories that include merely his races (i.e. elves, dwarves) like authors such as Christopher Paolini and myself? (and many others here, I assume)

Elves and dwarves were not his own. They existed in folk tales long before Tolkien himself was born. And they exist in tales after his death. Tolkien fashioned the archetype Elves and Dwarves for modern fantasy, just as - for example - Finns of old times fashioned Kullervo who Tolkien took to his own and named Túrin (of course changing him like the modern authors have changed his Elves). So I doubt he would disapprove. He would see it as recycling good old ideas, just like he did when making up his wonderful stories.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Elves and dwarves were not his own. They existed in folk tales long before Tolkien himself was born. And they exist in tales after his death. Tolkien fashioned the archetype Elves and Dwarves for modern fantasy, just as - for example - Finns of old times fashioned Kullervo who Tolkien took to his own and named Túrin (of course changing him like the modern authors have changed his Elves). So I doubt he would disapprove. He would see it as recycling good old ideas, just like he did when making up his wonderful stories.

Good point. I think Tolkien would have objected to other author's 'lifting' his Elves & Dwarves lock, stock & barrel - as so many writers of fantasy do - but not to other writers going back to the original sources.

Of course the problem is that too many writers of fantasy know that Tolkien drew on ancient sources for his Elves & dwarves, Trolls & Goblins, & think that he used them 'as is' - & that if they write about the kind of Elves in his works they aren't stealing from him but drawing on the old tales themselves. What they don't realise is that he didn't simply take those creatures from the old tales, but effectively made them into new & unique races. Elves & Dwarves may people old tales but they aren't Tolkien's Elves & Dwarves.

That said, Tolkien's works aren't original, & he took many things from old tales but he s made them his own. Too many writers of fantasy think they can 'do a Tolkien' by simply copying him (& too many readers of fantasy seem only to want a copy of Tolkien). I've said (too) many times that if you're looking for something in the same mould as Tolkien's work you should skip past the fantasy section & head for the 'Classics' section & pick up some Sagas - heroes, monsters, magic & epic tragedy: 'cool and clear, ... redolent of our ‘air’ (the clime and soil of the North
West, meaning Britain and hither parts of Europe….)

This is a good piece:
http://www.reflectionsedge.com/archi...05/dtw_sm.html

[davem]

I've found this excerpt from Rayner Unwin: George Allen and Unwin: A Remembrancer p.126 posted over on the Plaza by my friend Geordie (hope he doesn't mind me passing it on...) :

'While Tolkien remained in Oxford he and his secretary still had a lot of correspondence to deal with. He found this less and less amusing and more burdensome. "I came back yesterday to find a mass of letters, nearly all annoying and some troublesome" he told me in March 1966... In particular Tolkien was unable to deal with clashes of creativity. Many correspondents had been stimulated through reading LotR into an imitative and inept creativity of their own, based on some aspect of the book. Tolkien could muster very little tolerance for such misguided forms of admiration. The boisterous good humour with which he could face ridiculous aspects of real life deserted him when his own creation was misused. He would become angry and exasperated, and unless it was otherwise necessary we would try to shelter him from such well-intentioned effusions. He found it particularly difficult to commend, or even to write polite nothings about anything he did not actively approve of...Replies might be drafted but not sent, as after the expenditure of much time silence would seem preferable to hypocrisy'.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Parody videos? Some are funny; some are not. An important point, for me, is that they are not serious and that there is humour.

Some fanfic does take itself seriously, and that's where I guess Tolkien would have the real problem. I'm sure he'd be able to laugh at jokes about Ents or Lorien politics or whatnot. What is far, far more dreadful than that is a straight-faced drama concerning Legolas' romances before the Council of Elrond.

[davem]

For all he might have wanted to produce a mythology that he could dedicate to his country, it seems he was hurt by attempts to 'extend' it. Clearly he felt it was 'his', & not something which belonged to others, which they could add to.

So the question is whether fanfic is technically an addition, or more of a 'tribute'. Tolkien, it seems, felt that what he produced was the story, & only what he produced. I suppose its akin to somebody entering your house & using your things. However respectful they might be of them, they are using them without your permission. He could control what he did with his creation, but not what others did with it. It reflects his values, his vision of the world, & would always be, in some way, him. I think it was, in the end, simply too personal. To find his characters doing & saying things which he hadn't set down would perhaps have felt to him as if they were being manipulated to suit the plans & desires of others. He was, in many ways, a jealous creator, with something of Feanor in him, & in some ways he did, perhaps, love too well the work of his own hands. And yet, it is his creation. For others to take up his characters was perceived by him, rightly or wrongly, to be an attempt to dominate his own creation, & by extension to dominate him. Of course he couldn't authorise other minds & hands to take up the reins.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by davem

So the question is whether fanfic is technically an addition, or more of a 'tribute'. Tolkien, it seems, felt that what he produced was the story, & only what he produced. I suppose its akin to somebody entering your house & using your things. However respectful they might be of them, they are using them without your permission. He could control what he did with his creation, but not what others did with it. It reflects his values, his vision of the world, & would always be, in some way, him. I think it was, in the end, simply too personal. To find his characters doing & saying things which he hadn't set down would perhaps have felt to him as if they were being manipulated to suit the plans & desires of others. He was, in many ways, a jealous creator, with something of Feanor in him, & in some ways he did, perhaps, love too well the work of his own hands. And yet, it is his creation. For others to take up his characters was perceived by him, rightly or wrongly, to be an attempt to dominate his own creation, & by extension to dominate him. Of course he couldn't authorise other minds & hands to take up the reins.

Great synopsis. I agree whole-heartedly.