Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

I'm arguing that the fight was 50/50. As for drafts, the final work is what the author deems the most fitting, so they (drafts) aren't really reliable. The link Alatar posted to History of Middle-Earth Volume VIII even has a quote from Tolkien, saying:



Just pointing that out.

Tolkein's word is final - Sauron, then Gandalf the White is most dangerous in ME. This means Gandalf must have more sorcerous tools of destruction under his sleave if he chooses to use them than anything else save Sauron. This does not prove Gandalf cannot be defeated by a lesser creature, but it makes it damn more likely. End of story . . .LOL

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Tolkein's word is final - Sauron, then Gandalf the White is most dangerous in ME. This means Gandalf must have more sorcerous tools of destruction under his sleave if he chooses to use them than anything else save Sauron. This does not prove Gandalf cannot be defeated by a lesser creature, but it makes it damn more likely. End of story . . .LOL

How many did Gandalf face on Weathertop (assuming that it even happened in the movie)? If it even were all Nine, like I think in the books, Gandalf retreated and was chased off by four, and the wizard spins his hasty retreat into something positive by stating that by his chickenhood, Frodo and the others had to only contend with the five.

There were only five in PJ's adaptation, so maybe in the movie Gandalf does face all Nine.

He wasn't at Weathertop when Strider leads the Hobbits there. Gandalf obviously left in much haste, not even having time to scratch a G on a rock. One would then conclude that Nine were at least a match for the Grey Pilgrim. If, in RotK, the Witch-King were made 9X more powerful, he'd then be able alone to have the same effect on Gandalf the Grey.

As we're dealing with PJ's Gandalf the White, I'd then conclude that the WK's power was increased only three-fold.

Originally Posted by alatar

How many did Gandalf face on Weathertop (assuming that it even happened in the movie)? If it even were all Nine, like I think in the books, Gandalf retreated and was chased off by four, and the wizard spins his hasty retreat into something positive by stating that by his chickenhood, Frodo and the others had to only contend with the five.

There were only five in PJ's adaptation, so maybe in the movie Gandalf does face all Nine.

He wasn't at Weathertop when Strider leads the Hobbits there. Gandalf obviously left in much haste, not even having time to scratch a G on a rock. One would then conclude that Nine were at least a match for the Grey Pilgrim. If, in RotK, the Witch-King were made 9X more powerful, he'd then be able alone to have the same effect on Gandalf the Grey.

As we're dealing with PJ's Gandalf the White, I'd then conclude that the WK's power was increased only three-fold.

Gandalf the Grey was not chased off by four Nazgul - he wanted to lure them away from the Ring. Also, when as Grey he could have chosen not to kill the Nazgul, by the simple logic that they were a threat, but not a threat of Sauron's proportions or that of a Balrog. His role was first & foremost Steward of Middle Earth, meaning that if he could hold off the Nazgul away from the Ring for as long as possible, that should be all that he must do.

If there was a serious chance of the Nine killing Gandalf at Weathertop like with the Balrog in Moria, I have no doubt that then, & only then, would you have seen the REAL Gandalf the Grey uncloaked.
He said he was hard put to, as though he meant:"Ok they were were tough but I was never in any serious trouble".

But he was hardly in the state of shock & fear when he retold the encounter with the Balrog to the 3 Hunters in the Two Towers, & that was even when he was Gandalf the White!

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Tolkein's word is final - Sauron, then Gandalf the White is most dangerous in ME. This means Gandalf must have more sorcerous tools of destruction under his sleave if he chooses to use them than anything else save Sauron. This does not prove Gandalf cannot be defeated by a lesser creature, but it makes it damn more likely. End of story . . .LOL

Considering the record of the more dangerous Sauron against lesser beings (0-2), combined with Gandalf's words and reactions when speaking with Denethor in "The Siege of Gondor", if Gandalf was more powerful, it certainly was by a very small amount, and thus that is why I say the fight could have gone either way. Nowhere in the confrontation is a phrase or sentence stating that one was greater than the other, and seeing as how Gandalf is perhaps the wisest character in LOTR, if he thinks the Witch-King is a serious threat that could defeat him, I don't have reason to doubt his word.

Also, wasn't the comment of Gandalf being greater than the Nine said by Aragorn before the Witch-King's "power boost" as well? I vaguely recall Gandalf saying something like that to Frodo in Bag End in FOTR as well, though I am not sure.

[narfforc]

I have always felt that Gandalf does defeat Sauron, and The Witch-king for that matter. It is not by outward blasts of power that he achieves this, it is by wisdom, foresight and being one step ahead of the game. Gandalf releases Theoden from the grip of Saruman therefore allowing the Rohirrim to turn up at The Battle of The Pelennor Fields just in time, and it is Gandalf who convinces Elrond to allow the two youngers hobbits to be part of The Fellowship therefore allowing Merry to be present during Eowyns battle with The Witch-king, if not for Gandalf being the prime mover of the forces of good, then the scene at the Gates of Minas Tirith may have been different. Gandalf achieves the prime directive by wisdom and not by the power of force, this was his mission, not to oppose Sauron by way of Power.

[obloquy]

Also, wasn't the comment of Gandalf being greater than the Nine said by Aragorn before the Witch-King's "power boost" as well?

You take for granted your own idea of what Tolkien meant by his letter describing the Witch-King's "added demonic force," which has not been established conclusively. My reading of the letter bears as much legitimacy as yours does, and does not ask us to gloss over holes in logic: for example, If Sauron could literally channel more power into his Nazgul, why not do it when he knew exactly where the Ring was and didn't think anyone knew he was coming for it? Why only soup up the Witch-King? After all, wasn't the War of the Ring an "all or nothing" situation? Sauron wasn't personally at risk in Barad-dur, so why not pump even more vital juice into the Nerd-King?

Nope, I don't buy it, and I've provided sound arguments against it. You can believe what you want (and I know you do, facts be damned), but don't play the card like it's a conceded point.

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

Also, wasn't the comment of Gandalf being greater than the Nine said by Aragorn before the Witch-King's "power boost" as well? I vaguely recall Gandalf saying something like that to Frodo in Bag End in FOTR as well, though I am not sure.

Don't you think this is in effect Tolkein speaking his own mind out loud? Or is Aragorn really talking rubbish? I am still not convinced the enhanced Witch King is more powerful than the old one with his 8 servants put together. Sauron barely has any of his former power, so where has this sudden enormous hike in power into the Witch King come from? The Witch King is also more or less unproven in battle.

Gandalf vs the Witch King should favour Gandalf in the same way as a battle between Gandalf & Sauron would favour Sauron.

[alatar]

From 'The Siege of Gondor' as found in HoME, The War of the Ring (text exactly as it appears):

Originally Posted by Tolkien

Denethor and Faramir marvel at Gandalf's power over Nazgûl. Gandalf says things are still not so bad - because the W[izard] King has not yet appeared. He reveals that he is a renegade of his own order...[?from] Númenor. 'So far I have saved myself from him only by flight - for many an age he has lain in hiding or sleep while his master's power waned. But now he is grown more fell than ever.'

<Gandalf speaking to the Pipster> 'He wields others as his weapons. I speak of one whom you have met. The Wizard King, captain of those you called the Black Riders. Most fell of all the servants of the Dark Tower. But he has not [struck out (?): yet] taken to winged steeds. [In him I am not overmatched, and yet still I am matched, for he was a member of our order before evil took him].

Then there was a sortie from the city led by the Prince of Dol Amroth kinsman of Faramir and his folk, and Gandalf at his side. In the [?notch] of time they came up, and [?two] miles from the city drove back the enemy, making great slaugther, for the enemy cavalry were [?few] and [?little]...; the Nazgûl [?would (not) stand] the onslaught of Gandalf, for their Captain was not with them.

Seems that one of the original ideas was the the Witch King was one of the Wizard kind. Even after revision he retains the title of sorcerer, which might mean that he's a staff-less wizard. So maybe PJ went back to the Witch-King's roots, seeing that in some text that Gandalf admits that he cannot 'overmatch' the Witch-King (unless the contest is smoke rings), and so has the W-K literally floors Gandalf, who would have eventually fought back, ending in a draw.

Also, being a sorcerer, could the W-K pumped himself up just for the battle, spending all his power for one last throw, knowing that if he won the day, he could sleep it off for a few eons? And, like the darkness (you had to squint to see it in PJ's version), did his overamp run out too soon, leaving him vulnerable to Merry and Éowyn?

Originally Posted by alatar

Also, being a sorcerer, could the W-K pumped himself up just for the battle, spending all his power for one last throw, knowing that if he won the day, he could sleep it off for a few eons? And, like the darkness (you had to squint to see it in PJ's version), did his overamp run out too soon, leaving him vulnerable to Merry and Éowyn?

This battle would not be a draw if the real potential of Gandalf is dragged out of him by sheer need. The reference of the Witch King being the greatest servant of Mordor is of no avail here, since a servant of Morgoth had already fallen in battle to Gandalf.

The Witch King would have been at his greatest power when Sauron still had the Ring during the second age in the battle against the Last Alliance. Since he could not even make an impact in battle there, Sauron himself had to come to rescue him & the others.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by obloquy

You take for granted your own idea of what Tolkien meant by his letter describing the Witch-King's "added demonic force," which has not been established conclusively. My reading of the letter bears as much legitimacy as yours does, and does not ask us to gloss over holes in logic: for example, If Sauron could literally channel more power into his Nazgul, why not do it when he knew exactly where the Ring was and didn't think anyone knew he was coming for it? Why only soup up the Witch-King? After all, wasn't the War of the Ring an "all or nothing" situation? Sauron wasn't personally at risk in Barad-dur, so why not pump even more vital juice into the Nerd-King?

Sauron never knew where the One Ring was save for when Frodo claimed it in Mount Doom. Sauron, though powerful, was still limited and "powering up" the Witch-King (or anyone) would probably be a tiring process, possibly taking some time. The Witch-King, being the Dark Lord's most dangerous servant, was probably the best candidate for an increase in might. Regarding the War of the Ring being all or nothing, Sauron was quite arrogant, with the most notable example of this being his inability to comprehend anyone trying to destroy the One Ring.


Speaking to everyone here, since Gandalf's purpose in LOTR wasn't to save the day for the people, could PJ have made the scene to show that the people of Middle-Earth would have to save themselves? To me, all the scene appears to do is reinforce that idea. I don't see how Gandalf being bested by the Witch-King is an insult to his character--he just lost a fight. His character is still intact.

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

Speaking to everyone here, since Gandalf's purpose in LOTR wasn't to save the day for the people, could PJ have made the scene to show that the people of Middle-Earth would have to save themselves? To me, all the scene appears to do is reinforce that idea. I don't see how Gandalf being bested by the Witch-King is an insult to his character--he just lost a fight. His character is still intact.

Gandalf was the enemy of Sauron, so being overmatched by his servant is a sore blow to the integrity of Gandalf as a major power. As I have said before, Tolkein was probably worried that an enhanced Gandalf the White would have creamed the Witch King in his previous form; a tonic of power was needed to at least give the Witch King a chance in a direct encounter. Some posters (& PJ) here have interpreted this differently, ignoring the massively increased might of Gandalf the White, against an enhanced Witch King.

By the way, Eru himself increased Gandalf's power for good measure, with a prior knowledge of knowing what Sauron may do to increase the Witch King's power. With this in mind, Eru would not have left a debt in Gandalf's power versus the Witch King!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

In this context there's a problem with the scene on the walls where Pippin 'saves' Gandalf from an Orc- notwithstanding Gandalf the White's explicit statement in the book (The White Rider) that he was immune to ordinary weapons (even Anduril).

Originally Posted by Mansun

By the way, Eru himself increased Gandalf's power for good measure, with a prior knowledge of knowing what Sauron may do to increase the Witch King's power. With this in mind, Eru would not have left a debt in Gandalf's power versus the Witch King!

This qoute wins the argument in favour of Gandalf the White, & virtually proves that he would indeed be victorious against the Witch King in battle. Not that this counts too much in context with the film!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

His character is still intact.

This is the problem. Gandalf the White is lying on the ground looking fearful! He who took on a Balrog and walked the halls of Dol Guldur was afraid. Peter Jackson could have redeemed himself just by adding a faint smile on the Wizard's lips, as if to say, "You flying fool! While you're here knocking me about, 7000 horsepersons just showed up on your flank, and two of those riders hold your doom in their hands."

[obloquy]

Sauron never knew where the One Ring was save for when Frodo claimed it in Mount Doom.

Then why did he send the Ringwraiths to the Shire? Didn't Sauron perceive the thoughts of his servants when they had the Ring and its bearer pinned down in Bree, on Weathertop, or at the Ford?

Sauron, though powerful, was still limited and "powering up" the Witch-King (or anyone) would probably be a tiring process, possibly taking some time.

Based on what prior example? This is pure speculation and one of those leaps in logic I mentioned.

The Witch-King, being the Dark Lord's most dangerous servant, was probably the best candidate for an increase in might.

Yeah, no doubt. So you're saying that Sauron only had a little to give, and it was really hard for him to do it, so the Witch-King got it all. Sounds like another leap in logic.

Regarding the War of the Ring being all or nothing, Sauron was quite arrogant, with the most notable example of this being his inability to comprehend anyone trying to destroy the One Ring.

You're right, he was arrogant. Your example is an accurate one but what it reveals runs counter to your argument: His arrogance was in his presumption that military might was of primary importance. In this endeavor he put forth all that he was capable of mustering and held back nothing.

All of this is virtually irrelevant anyway since the indisputable fact is that the literal interpretation of the note has not been established.

I don't see how Gandalf being bested by the Witch-King is an insult to his character--he just lost a fight. His character is still intact.

His character--that of demigod in man's form, peer of Sauron--is decidedly not intact in the movie. If the scenario bore any hint of possibility I doubt so many people would be bent out of shape about it.