Glorfindel is a girl?!

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Folwren

And what about Eowyn and Faramir? Tolkien had more of their love story in the actual novel than that of Aragorn and Arwen? Why didn't they get more screen time?

The Council of Elrond needed work, too. Maybe Glorfindel would have been able to save that as well as Frodo....

I agree with both these points here. The relationship of Eowyn and Faramir is a great one, especially because, like you said, Tolkien elaborated more on it in the narrative of the novel. It's also just a great love story, to see how Faramir carries himself towards Eowyn, and vice versa. Great, great stuff that didn't make it in PJ's world, amongst other things he left out.

The Council definitely needed work. Wasn't the Council at a rectangular table? And the whole "You have my sword...etc.,etc." from each character just does not fit. It is the wisdom and choice of Elrond that joined the Nine Walkers, not some spur of the moment desire of each member to vow his life for Frodo. Not to mention, don't you think that when each character got up to pledge alliegence to the Quest that almost every single other body there would have as well? No doubt that their courage would have been doubted if not. Instead in the films the rest just sit back and relax like it's no big deal.

[alatar]

alatar shudders at what he is about to do...defend the work of Peter Jackson...

Originally Posted by MatthewM

I agree with both these points here. The relationship of Eowyn and Faramir is a great one, especially because, like you said, Tolkien elaborated more on it in the narrative of the novel. It's also just a great love story, to see how Faramir carries himself towards Eowyn, and vice versa. Great, great stuff that didn't make it in PJ's world, amongst other things he left out.

There is only so much time, and even though PJ's films were overly long by today's standards (the more times you show a movie per day, the more money you make, and there's still only 24 hours/day), he still had to leave some scenes and ideas on the floor. And, especially with the experiment that was FotR, PJ had to make sure that the first film was a financial success, as if it weren't, Helm's Deep may not have been as fun to watch (no money = no CG, no refilmed scenes, etc). And though I've been on this roundabout before, PJ thought that (1) having Arwen in the film earlier and more rather that later and little would make the film more successful, (2) adding extra powerful characters not only muddied the waters in the audience's minds but wasn't good storytelling and (3) he had enough plot holes to sham over, and having a powerful character not show up later in the movie would just have too many people stuck wondering.

Plus, with wonderful Tolkienesque dialog like "Give up the halfling, She-Elf!" you just know that he made the right choice.

The Council definitely needed work. Wasn't the Council at a rectangular table?

Round table...where have I read that before? Note that nothing was in the scene by chance.

And the whole "You have my sword...etc.,etc." from each character just does not fit. It is the wisdom and choice of Elrond that joined the Nine Walkers, not some spur of the moment desire of each member to vow his life for Frodo. Not to mention, don't you think that when each character got up to pledge alliegence to the Quest that almost every single other body there would have as well? No doubt that their courage would have been doubted if not. Instead in the films the rest just sit back and relax like it's no big deal.

Although it was nothing like the book where a case was made for taking the Ring for a lava swim, the scene where the Nine Walkers assemble themselves, to me, was emotionally powerful. I see persons 'standing up' against the Darkness, and to me the scene worked well enough. Especially Aragorn and Boromir - Aragorn later will bow before Frodo and refuse the Ring right before the Uruks come, and Boromir does sell himself for the Ringbearer (or nearest kin).

Anyway, as much as I have issues with the trilogy, Glorfindel is way down the list on things I would have changed.


P.S.

Originally Posted by Finduilas

and I think sending a girl out against nine black riders is silly.

Galadriel, Eowyn and my daughter Boog ("Stronger than boys!") would beg to differ.

[Folwren]

Don't be ridiculous. Galadriel wasn't a warrior. Eowyn was incorrect in her reasoning and thinking. Finduilas was perfectly right.

Besides, even if Galadriel did fight - Arwen did not. Not in the books anyway.

-- Folwren

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by alatar

There is only so much time, and even though PJ's films were overly long by today's standards (the more times you show a movie per day, the more money you make, and there's still only 24 hours/day), he still had to leave some scenes and ideas on the floor. And, especially with the experiment that was FotR, PJ had to make sure that the first film was a financial success, as if it weren't, Helm's Deep may not have been as fun to watch (no money = no CG, no refilmed scenes, etc). And though I've been on this roundabout before, PJ thought that (1) having Arwen in the film earlier and more rather that later and little would make the film more successful, (2) adding extra powerful characters not only muddied the waters in the audience's minds but wasn't good storytelling and (3) he had enough plot holes to sham over, and having a powerful character not show up later in the movie would just have too many people stuck wondering.

Plus, with wonderful Tolkienesque dialog like "Give up the halfling, She-Elf!" you just know that he made the right choice.

i'd be tempted to swap "right" with "wrong" on your final sentence.

It may have been more cost efficient to scrap Glorfindel but thats not really important to us, the viewers, is it? As a result, i just find myself bewildered and devastated one of the best characters is not included. Surely other dodgy scenes could be modified if cost and time were the big n issues...

adding extra powerful characters not only muddied the waters in the audience's minds but wasn't good storytelling and (3) he had enough plot holes to sham over, and having a powerful character not show up later in the movie would just have too many people stuck wondering.

I think this evalution is certainly how the book was, so why not the film? I wondered if the outcome would have been different if Glorfindel ventured with the fellowship. Merry and Pippin substituted the possibility of Glorfindel in the expedition. '"Stuck" wondering' i think is abit exaggorated, it would probably serve as a mere passing thought during the film.

I am still bitter about the utter carnage of PJ on Glorfindel!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Hammerhand

i'd be tempted to swap "right" with "wrong" on your final sentence.

I cannot comprehend why...

It may have been more cost efficient to scrap Glorfindel but thats not really important to us, the viewers, is it? As a result, i just find myself bewildered and devastated one of the best characters is not included. Surely other dodgy scenes could be modified if cost and time were the big n issues...

It's not cost, as in actor, costume etc, but the cost to the story which then translates to the success of the film. Image if we had the four hobbits stop off for an hour for a visit with Tom. Less time for Moria, which may have appealed to more persons than the few (here) that even know who Tom is.

My sister, a fan of the movie but having never read the books, did not miss Tom or Glorfindel. Her criticism in TTT was, "Who ARE all of these people?" She's no dunce, but found even some of PJ's LotR confusing. She did buy tickets - remember, never read the books and thinks that they're geeky - yet PJ got her in the theatre.

I am still bitter about the utter carnage of PJ on Glorfindel!

Consider yourself blessed (maybe he was at Helm's Deep). My fav, Gandalf, was in the films, and was so trashed in RotK:EE that I quit watching the movies for months. You may miss the old elf, but at least your memory/fondness remains untainted, unlike mine with that of a prone scared wizard.

[Folwren]

Poor alatar. I am sorry about Gandalf. His character was butchered. But at least it wasn't Frodo who was your favorite character, as he is just about mine. Frodo's character was not only butchered but also blown into smithering pieces and then tried to be put back together...

[alatar]

Don't cry for me. The SbS provided a cathartic; I'm all better now and have moved on to complaining about other things not in the movies.

Like Fredegar ‘Fatty’ Bolger...

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Poor alatar. I am sorry about Gandalf. His character was butchered. But at least it wasn't Frodo who was your favorite character, as he is just about mine. Frodo's character was not only butchered but also blown into smithering pieces and then tried to be put back together...

Totally agree, Frodo positively hummed of pathetic and feminine attributes. He was never a favourite in the book for me though.

Originally Posted by alatar

Consider yourself blessed (maybe he was at Helm's Deep). My fav, Gandalf, was in the films, and was so trashed in RotK:EE that I quit watching the movies for months. You may miss the old elf, but at least your memory/fondness remains untainted, unlike mine with that of a prone scared wizard.

I think thats a very well educated answer :P Nonetheless, it would have been nice to see him, even briefly. Going by your common sense, the scenes with Bombadil would have been far too long for the film i think, another shame but one more undestandable.

[Finduilas]

The loss of Glorfindel is a forgivable twist, as far as I am concerned, but that doesn't mean I think it was ok. But if I was going to kill PJ it wouldn't be for that. Don't worry, I'm really not in the least violent.

As you can probably see, I don't really like Arwen. In fact, while watching TTT with family we always fast foward almost every scene with her in it. So you could say, I am uncommonly biased, not only liking Glorfindel, but disliking the movie Arwen.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Hammerhand

I think thats a very well educated answer :P Nonetheless, it would have been nice to see him, even briefly. Going by your common sense, the scenes with Bombadil would have been far too long for the film i think, another shame but one more undestandable.

Always be careful what you wish for.

I read that, when introducing someone new to LotR that one may consider telling the person to start reading at Bree, as the chapter prior tend to bog some readers down like so many marshes. Once the person is hooked, he/she may then reread the entire FotR book, now wondering what all of that minutia was about.

Originally Posted by Finduilas

As you can probably see, I don't really like Arwen. In fact, while watching TTT with family we always fast foward almost every scene with her in it. So you could say, I am uncommonly biased, not only liking Glorfindel, but disliking the movie Arwen.

Though I agree that sometimes the scenes with her and her live-in boyfriend tend to slow down the action, I don't think that PJ did too bad with Arwen (with the exception of the Fords scene ). Remember, there were many 'dates' in the theatre, and some people enjoyed the love story amongst all of the action. I did send my wife the eCard with the Arwen/Aragorn bridge scene.

And speaking of Glorfindel, PJ barely shows Eomer and Faramir, and I think that these characters were more important to the story than the Big G.

Arwen, on the other hand, was one person to chose out of the host of Elves that Elrond had. What father would have sent his daughter out to face nine powerful evil beings, when he himself was more powerful than she? Was he afraid of riding horses?

Did Elrond send her, or did she sneak out? Methinks that Elrond probably tipped off the Nine as to the whereabouts of Aragorn, as the Half-Elven isn't exactly keen on having a man as a son-in-law.

Originally Posted by Folwren

Look, Eowyn was an exception. Women in Tolkien's world didn't go out on a normal bases riding horses in the wild and challenging evil, powerful beings like the Nazgul! It almost looks like that in the movie! Whenever there's a chance - who's there saving someone from a Nazgul? A woman! Yay for females!!

You forget Sam tackling Frodo when Frodo was proposing to the Winged Nazgul in that City of Love Osgiliath ("with this Ring I demonstrate my undying love..."), and there's always Brego (male?), who seemingly kisses just like Arwen.