The Best Adaptions

[MatthewM]

Formendacil, if I have given a higher air to the way you see Boromir, I am satisfied. And you're right- everyone sees Tolkien's world in their own way. Like Boromir88 said, that is part of what makes these books so amazing.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I just don't consider it to be big deal when compared to traits and personality...as for me, thats what I think about the most when it comes to portrayal. Did Bean and Jackson get Boromir's mannerisms and personality correct? As its those things which 'bring the character to life on screen', for me, where somebody else may be different and place their emphasis on...say Boromir's appearance.

I put a much higher emphasis on appearance, I always have. Personality and mannerisms are just as important to me...because for me if an actor is playing the part (from book to movie) well, yet fails to coincide with the book in appearance (and vice versa) I can't see the portrayal as authentic as some might.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I see it as rather childish because he's angry (maybe about having to go through Moria?) and so he just throws in a giant rock.

Hm, I actually forgot that Boromir says that before he throws the stone into the water. I suppose it was a bit childish then, yet I can understand his anger as he did not want to enter Moria, and the whole Company was backing some wizard who couldn't open a door, and who his father wasn't too sure of.

Speaking of childish, and personality and mannerisms, I seem to have forgotten one of the worst scenes PJ ever filmed concerning Boromir and his personality, and this scene is right up there in filth with the EE Osgiliath scene...I can't believe I forgot to mention it sooner. Now here is an example of why movie Boromir is childish, far more childish than anyone could say about book Boromir- Aragorn is sitting peacefully in a part of Rivendell, where there is a huge moral depicting the defeat of Sauron during the Second Age, when Isildur cut the Ring off Sauron's hand. Not far away stands a statue that holds the Shards of Narsil. Boromir enters, says nothing to Aragorn, actually picks up the broken hilt, traces his finger across it while talking to himself- "The blade that cut the Ring..." (while almost reinacting what happened), then cutting his finger on it by accident ("still sharp...") he finally notices that Aragorn has been staring him down. Boromir looks with fear at Aragorn, and concludes with "but no more than a broken hilt". With that, Boromir hastily puts the hilt back on its resting place, and it falls down and clangs an obnoxious noise. Boromir turns his head, looks at it- not giving a hoot less, and walks away.

Talk about childish...I rest my case in saying that this movie Boromir, in this scene especially, can not even compare to book Boromir. There is no lordliness, as we know, in Bean, and there is absolutely no kindliness in this scene. Instead there is complete disrespect to Boromir's own country (which we know would never have happened in the books) and complete disrespect to Boromir's character alone. In fact, this scene is so demoralizing to Boromir's character as is the Osgiliath scene that I do not even consider either of them to be portrayal's of Boromir- I can't even give them the credit of being PJ's Boromir in his more finer scenes.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I would too, and Boromir being the leader that he was back in Gondor it's more understandable that he would be the one objecting, since he was used to the leadership role and getting things done his way. However, I think its the way he reacts (like he does at the Gates of Moria)...it seems a lot like frustration; and rather like a tantrem. Instead of just objecting and saying 'I don't think this is a good idea' I think it's just the way I read the remark...It reminds me of something I would do as a kid, when I didn't want to go some where...'If dad's not going I don't have to either!.'

I don't see any sort of tantrem in Boromir's words (concering the direction of the Nine Walkers after Moria), perhaps a bit of frustration because no one has really been listening to his opinion concerning where The Fellowship should go. I still can't see this disagreeing as childish, as he was so accustomed to giving orders and already weary from what he heard in Gondor (about Lorien)- but I'm sure everyone reads the remarks differently.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

'But the Enemy holds the eastern bank,' objected Boromir. 'And even if you pass the Gates of Argonath and come unmolested to the Tindrock, what will you do then? Leap down the Falls and land in the marshes?'~The Great River

I think this is both sarcastic and ironic. Sarcastic because Boromir doesn't agree with the path Aragorn wants to take and he's making some little jabs at it. Ironic because it is Boromir who arguably goes 'leaping down the falls' into 'the marshes.'

Nice catch, I love Boromir's sarcasm here. I've never picked up on that irony- again, nice catch.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Aye, sorry about that little confusion. I was saying that I liked that part of the movie with Boromir and I went on to explain growth in their relationship. Sorry, if I misunderstood but I thought you were saying Boromir acting 'paranoid' about Aragorn's claim was a wrong portrayal.

A misunderstanding it was! No worries!

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Yes, it was Eomer's opinion, but I think we can take it to be true. As Eomer says he had seen Boromir before, and in seeing Boromir he seemed more like the 'swift sons of Eorl' than those 'grave men in Gondor.' And eventhough Boromir was from Gondor, Eomer seperates him from the 'grave men of Gondor.' Also, I think his passion for Gondor (and for Gondor's victory) shows that he was not like the typical 'grave' men of his country.

I still think it's just Eomer's opinion, just because, like Boromir (to Gondor), Eomer was tremendously devoted to Rohan and I can see how he would push his patriotism of "the swift sons of Eorl" to one of the few Gondorians Eomer (most likely) knew- Gondor's greatest. I also see Eomer's words as a bit of a generalization- he's lumping all men of Gondor as grave, and all of Rohan swift. Obviously, there are grave men and swift men in both countries. I do agree of course with Eomer's praise of Boromir and his kind words about him, I just don't take his "more like to the swift sons of Eorl" speel seriously.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

And I agree with you about the smile...I'll have to watch the scene again (as I haven't seen the movie in a little while). But I do vaguely remember Boromir expressing a certain hapiness/peacefulness before he dies. I'll take your word that he doesn't smile, but Aragorn does lay Boromir's sword in his hand and Boromir brings it to his chest...then I think Aragorn kisses him on the forehead, which I think all shows the final end of Boromir quite well.

The 'smile' shows Boromir's end is a peaceful one, and I think this is still shown in the movies...the smile probably would have been easier and better though

I'm pretty sure when movie Boromir says his last lines "I would have followed you..." he smiles a little bit, but it wasn't the same as I picture it in the book, one because the very last thing Boromir does in the book was smile, not say the line "my king". Yes quite knitpicky, I know, but very vital in my opinion. The smile is the resolution from Boromir's mistake and overwhelming pride he displayed while trying to wrestle the Ring from Frodo, and the smile is, in my opinion, what ties into one of the most beautiful lines in all of the book-

"But in Gondor in after-days it long was said that the elven-boat rode the falls and the foaming pool, and bore him down through Osgiliath, and past the many mouths of Anduin, out into the Great Sea at night under the stars." - The Departure of Boromir

For me this confirms 100% that through his last defense of the hobbits, Boromir was forgiven, not only by himself, but by the higher powers of Middle-earth.

Like you said, in the movie they could have done it much better.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

So, now that I look at it, I think the main disagreement comes with just how we think of 'portrayal.' Particularly around Boromir's death scene. Eventhough if Jackson alters the scene and changes it, I think the message is still there. I get the same feeling watching it on screen as I did reading the books, Jackson just shows the 'final stand' differently. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is your argument then that the way Jackson portrays the scene...although delivers the same feelings, it doesn't show Boromir's strength and bravery to the extent the books do with Boromir's death? Therefor, the portrayal, allthough isn't wrong, it's not as good as it could have been?

Exactly.

So, although we disagree on certain aspects, I think we agree on a lot as well. It has been good having this discussion!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Let's see- the book characters Jackson did best with?

Bombadil
Goldberry
The Barrow-wight
Glorfindel
Ted Sandyman
Bill Ferny
Quickbeam
Radagast
Beregond

[Boromir88]

Matthew , the feeling is mutual.

Just one quick comment...I forgot about that scene in Rivendell where Boromir throws down Elendil - I thought he said 'no more than a broken heirloom' but sometimes I have trouble understanding Bean's accent...and I agree that was so childish it was way out of Boromir's character. Thanks for bringing that up as I completely forgot about that part.

As we see from the story, Boromir revered the sword of Elendil, and if he ever were to pick it up (which another thing is I have no idea who Elrond has it out for display for everyone to come and take a peek at ), he would never have tossed it on the ground and shown such childish disrespect for an extremely important heirloom in Gondor's history!

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Let's see- the book characters Jackson did best with?

Bombadil
Goldberry
The Barrow-wight
Glorfindel
Ted Sandyman
Bill Ferny
Quickbeam
Radagast
Beregond

Ahh just the characters he left out...
I guess that makes it so PJ couldn't ruin them.

I thought Gandalf was portrayed well as was Sam, by their respected actors. Although there may have been differences in the way Fran wrote Boromir's character as opposed to the Professor, I think/thought that Sean Bean would have pulled off either with equal perfection.

[Thinlómien]

Welcome to the 'downs, Master Morgoth! If you want to introduce yourself, it can be done here.

I partly agree with you - and others - about Gandalf. I think McKellen was great, but... I think he lacked something. He was, in a way, too soft and I don't think the movie-Gandalf showed the more dangerous and powerful Gandalf very well. Gandalf the White in action was pretty lame and even Gandalf the Grey lacked the certain spark of fire, something in Gandalf that made the ring Narya match his spirit. There was a little bit too much of a kind old man in the movie Gandalf.
(Oh, you should all see a Finnish TV-series, that was made of LotR in the early nineties, called Hobitit (Hobbits). The Gandalf in the series is great, even though he looks quite un-gandalfish. Oh, jolly, I found a pic of the actors. See.

From left to right: Boromir, Gandalf, Gimli, Merry, Sam, Frodo and Aragorn. Oh gosh, they look so funny. )

edit: the pic is actually from the play they made and on which the TV series was based on, but it looks the same...

Thinlómien,

I share your views stated above. I am no lover of Peter Jackson's interpretations and detest his lack of faith in Tolkien's own work, but as movies alone I quite enjoyed them all, some more than others. My point is the actors played to the written movie scripts about as good as anyone else could have. Now if PJ and company would have written the characters in the script as the Professor had in the book, then I would have no compassion for the actors digression of character.

And thank you for your welcome.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Welcome to the 'downs, Master Morgoth! If you want to introduce yourself, it can be done here.

I partly agree with you - and others - about Gandalf. I think McKellen was great, but... I think he lacked something. He was, in a way, too soft and I don't think the movie-Gandalf showed the more dangerous and powerful Gandalf very well. Gandalf the White in action was pretty lame and even Gandalf the Grey lacked the certain spark of fire, something in Gandalf that made the ring Narya match his spirit. There was a little bit too much of a kind old man in the movie Gandalf.
(Oh, you should all see a Finnish TV-series, that was made of LotR in the early nineties, called Hobitit (Hobbits). The Gandalf in the series is great, even though he looks quite un-gandalfish. Oh, jolly, I found a pic of the actors. See.

From left to right: Boromir, Gandalf, Gimli, Merry, Sam, Frodo and Aragorn. Oh gosh, they look so funny. )

edit: the pic is actually from the play they made and on which the TV series was based on, but it looks the same...

Umm... Wheres Pippin?

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Let's see- the book characters Jackson did best with?

Bombadil
Goldberry
The Barrow-wight
Glorfindel
Ted Sandyman
Bill Ferny
Quickbeam
Radagast
Beregond

You forgot Bergil though...Since he is Beregond's son...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

You forgot Bergil though...Since he is Beregond's son...

Yup. As well as

Fatty Bolger
Lotho Pimple
Ghan-Buri-Ghan
Imrahil
Ioreth

Seriously, though, I think the characters who survived the transition to film with the least damage were
1) Eowyn
2) Gandalf the Grey (not White)
3) Sam

Two honorable mentions:

Boromir, who isn't exactly Book-Boromir but he's not bad; and
Wormtongue, whom Dourif nails, but the visual concept for the character might as well have tattooed EVIL MINION on his forehead.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Yup. As well as

Fatty Bolger
Lotho Pimple
Ghan-Buri-Ghan
Imrahil
Ioreth

Seriously, though, I think the characters who survived the transition to film with the least damage were
1) Eowyn
2) Gandalf the Grey (not White)
3) Sam

Two honorable mentions:

Boromir, who isn't exactly Book-Boromir but he's not bad; and
Wormtongue, whom Dourif nails, but the visual concept for the character might as well have tattooed EVIL MINION on his forehead.

Hehe As I said before, You can't ruin characters if you don't have them...
This thread is really going... more than I expected.

[Essex]

MatthewM

To add to what Formendacil and Boromir88 say above -

It always amazes me how different people can have different viewpoints of characters that are almost 100% opposite to each other - I see it again and again in looking at different threads on this site. It's probably what makes this place so interesting.

I'd just like to take you up on one area of your post to explain my point above - you said re Boromir:

I do not get that from PJ's adaption. Instead, we see a man with childish grudges who gets upset when he doesn't always get his way

I see EXACTLY this when I think of book Boromir. It took me a few reads to get to this point - I remember a few years back I was re reading LOTR for the umpteenth time and we were discussing the character of Boromir on this site so I concentrated on him as I read from the Council to the Breaking of the Fellowship. I found Boromir a petulant, childish figure quite a number of times in the way he acted.

I'll try to fish out the Thread the discussion was on - and post a link here. - you might enjoy it.

Here's one of them:

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...ish#post381783

and http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...ish#post319074

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Essex

I'd just like to take you up on one area of your post to explain my point above -

Sigh. I thought people might let this go by now, but apparently there will always be one who throws more fuel on the fire. Anyway, you can take me up on any point you like. The points you make in your linked threads hold no substance, in my opinion, for you say-

Originally Posted by Essex

I've gone the opposite way to you Boromir, regarding your namesake. I also looked more closely at Boromir's character after seeing the scenes in the FOTR movie.
I now see him as an even more petulant, aggresive, arrogant and childish figure. You may think this is extreme, but to me I really get this view of Boromir when I read the books now.

You say that it was only after you saw PJ's overly childish Boromir that you started clinging those traits onto book Boromir. Your argument falls dead. I do not see the overly dramatized "petulant, aggressive, arrogant, and childish" character that you do. Not by a long shot. I have given ample citations in the text that cite Boromir's situation as to why he probably acted the way he did...and only once would I say he was a bit childish in the story. Aren't we all? Anyway, I do not need to cite all of my explanations again, think what you want.