Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Do you honestly think the Witch King was greater than the Balrog from Moria, even with the added demonic force?

You don't get what I'm saying. I'm not saying the WK WAS 'greater' than Gandalf.

Perhaps a fault of the LOTR was that Gandalf had defeated a great enemy so early in the book (& film), meaning that only Sauron was left to cause a serious threat to Gandalf in battle.

good point. I agree. But then you have to remember that the battle actually was a draw wasn't it? Both Gandalf and the Balrog died. Gandalf grandly states that he defeated his enemy, but he glosses over the point that he had to be brought back to life too!!!!

Another point, Gandalf regularly called people fools, as did other characters - why cannot then posters call others fools if they choose to?

And they probably call each other worse things than that but, no, it doesn't give us a right to call each other fools. That is not prudent at all.

Isn't Gandalf able to protect his body with special spells rather like the Witch King & Sauron? Otherwise he would be as vulnerable as a Hobbit. In the human form, Gandalf is subject to the same pains, weariness, & fear as with all humans. But the key difference is he can defend himself with a power, of which only Sauron (or any other great maia) could definately contend with.

I haven't read that anywhere as of yet........ to quote Tolkien from The Istari" in Unfinished Tales

"with theconsent of Eru they sent members of their high order, but clad in bodiesas of Men, real and not feigned, but subject of the fears and pain and weariness of earth,able to hunger and thirst and be slain. . . . And this the Valar did, desiring to amend theerrors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by theirown might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to revealthemselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by opendisplay of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good. . . ."

so Gandalf can die. Be it by a lucky stroke perhaps............

Originally Posted by Essex

so Gandalf can die. Be it by a lucky stroke perhaps............

Gandalf indeed can die, as he did when he defeated the Balrog. His death appears to be like a binding contract set by Eru - reveal your true power to the full extent against Sauron or his seravnts in an assault & I will end your stay in Middle Earth.

But just because he can die does not mean he is very vulnerable to enemies. He could use all is true power to protect himself against a stroke from, say the Witch King's deadly Morgul Knife, so long as he does not use it to kill the Witch King.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Gandalf indeed can die, as he did when he defeated the Balrog. His death appears to be like a binding contract set by Eru - reveal your true power to the full extent against Sauron or his seravnts in an assault & I will end your stay in Middle Earth.

But just because he can die does not mean he is very vulnerable to enemies. He could use all is true power to protect himself against a stroke from, say the Witch King's deadly Morgul Knife, so long as he does not use it to kill the Witch King.

and that's where our opinions differ. I cannot see any supporting evidence that allows (book) Gandalf to use a magic shield to protect himself from enemies. If he could, then the Balrog would not have killed him.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

and that's where our opinions differ. I cannot see any supporting evidence that allows (book) Gandalf to use a magic shield to protect himself from enemies. If he could, then the Balrog would not have killed him.

How do we know that it was the Balrog that killed Gandalf the Grey? Maybe it was the exertion - he used up all of his power - or the rarefied atmosphere. Maybe it was a result of the Balrog's fall and death that not actively resulted in Gandalf's demise.

[Boromir88]

what I'm trying to say is that the strong don't always win - upsets happen~Essex

Yes, upsets happen, as unlikely as it is...but what Jackson shows wasn't The Witch-King getting a 'lucky' blow in on Gandalf. It wasn't Gandalf stumbling on a rock, or getting stabbed in the back...it was the Witch-King dominating Gandalf (breaking his staff) and basically making him cry.

Originally Posted by Essex

and that's where our opinions differ. I cannot see any supporting evidence that allows (book) Gandalf to use a magic shield to protect himself from enemies. If he could, then the Balrog would not have killed him.

I believe in the LOTR it tells that Gandalf first killed the Balrog, then Gandalf died. So a magical shield theory could exist. As another poster correctly pointed out, it seems much more likey that Gandalf had used up all his life power in combat against the Balrog, fell to the ground & lost conciousness.

Recall the words Gandalf told of the 3 Hunters: "None of you have weapons that could hurt me". How then could Gandalf not have a magical ability to shield himself as though he is immune to a dint from Gimli's axe?

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Yes, upsets happen, as unlikely as it is...but what Jackson shows wasn't The Witch-King getting a 'lucky' blow in on Gandalf. It wasn't Gandalf stumbling on a rock, or getting stabbed in the back...it was the Witch-King dominating Gandalf (breaking his staff) and basically making him cry.

This is a good point, although long ago mentioned in previous posts. The film tells us that the Witch King is much more mightier than Gandalf, even though Gandalf slew the impressive Balrog in a titanic battle. There was no upset here - the Witch King wins hands down as though it were Morgoth himself hammering down Gandalf.

The book tells us that Gandalf is mightier than a Balrog (the most dangerous opponent one can face after Sauron), but his measure of power nevertheless remains to be tested against the enhanced Witch King.

It is therefore upto the reader to decide for themselves; that I have done & conclude that given Gandalf's victory against the Balrog, one could be confident to expect Gandalf to kill the Witch King if he so chosed to do so (albeit through ending his own life via breaking the rules set by Eru).

[CSteefel]

Perhaps I missed it further back in this long thread, but I think that at least these latest posts are missing the fact that Gandalf himself is enhanced when he returns--the White Wizard instead of the Grey Pilgrim. There are numerous instances where Gandalf's enhanced power is mentioned, ranging from the quote above about Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli not having weapons to hurt him, to the destaffing of Saruman, etc.

So Sauron may have enhanced the Witch King's power, but Gandalf's power seems to have been enhanced on his return by Eru...

All of which goes to show to me that Peter Jackson completely misread the whole thing and changed the story for some desired dramatic effect...

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Mansun

It is therefore upto the reader to decide for themselves

Exactly. That sums up the whole thread. It is up to us to decide how the battle would have gone. It doesn't make anyone a fool if they think one way or another. We all have an opinion.

I have listened to all the well thought out arguments during this long, long thread. A lot of the arguments make sense, and HAVE changed my thinking somewhat towards the relative powers of Gandalf and the Witch King.

But I still say there is some doubt in Gandalf's mind when he approaches the gate. The tension that Tolkien cranks up to this point is palpable every time I read the book. To think that Gandalf could easily wipe the floor with the WK takes this tension away from the story. In my opinion Tolkien's view that it would be a pretty close battle is brought out in the style of writing, the atmosphere and the set up to the Witch King's entrance into Minas Tirith. To have this grandious entrance by Sauron's right hand man but just to sit there yawning and thinking as you read the book - "hey, no problem, this is boring, Gandalf's gonna wipe his hide anyway" - takes EVERYTHING away from this scene.

PS - Gandalf couldn't beat him anyway as Glorfindel said

(sound of can of worms opening)

[alatar]

In Peter Jackson's Arda, Arwen bests (with the help of a well-placed stream) all Nine, and also bests the best Ranger in the world. Aragorn was able to best Five of the Nine.

Arwen later becomes mortal - weird that her hands are cold as that would make her reptillian - and so we don't know what her powers were by RotK, but bleached Gandalf loses to the enhanced Witch-King, and so, in some sense, Arwen is or was greater than Gandalf. Make sense?

At least we know why PJ removed her scenes from Helm's Deep, as you couldn't generate the same amount of despair for the humans when Arwen Warrior Princess, Greater than Maia is around.

Originally Posted by Essex

But I still say there is some doubt in Gandalf's mind when he approaches the gate. The tension that Tolkien cranks up to this point is palpable every time I read the book.

PS - Gandalf couldn't beat him anyway as Glorfindel said

Tension is crucial in a book & film to ensure the audience engages with it; how boring it would be if the Witch King rides over to Gandalf, who in reply says "You fool, I am a Maia sent by Eru. You are no match for me. Go back to the shadow". In this case Gandalf would show no tension, just supreme confidence that he would defeat the Witch King easily, which the audience would pick up & realise it would be an easy win for Gandalf.

The tension Gandalf experienced was much increased by the coming of a 100,000 strong host of Mordor to the gates of Minas Tirith. Had the Witch King come alone, I do not think Gandalf would have been as tense. Anyway, as I keep pointing out, Gandalf was petrified when he saw the Balrog in Moria. If he thought he was going to end up in a titanic battle with the Witch King, why then was he not as afraid?

Gandalf could best the Witch King to live up to Glorfindel's comments - he is not an ordinary living man by nature.

First of all apologies for double posting, it is necessary as this is a separate point.

Somebody posted a long time ago about the fact that the Lord of the Nazgul was shaken by the fire of Gandalf at Weathertop, & that he also narrowly missed being pierced by a deadly blade, Sting, wielded by Frodo which would have been more lethal to him than the wound suffered by Frodo at the hands of the Morgul knife. I would very much like to know where this extract came from, since it also suggests that in the aftermath the Witch King was left reeling & even afraid of both Gandalf & Frodo.