Greatest sin of Peter Jackson

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Alatar - I do not disagree with the main points you make here. My claim is NOT that the films will last forever and forever supplant the books. I do not do very well predicting the future since the Entrails R US store went out of business. My point is that now, right here in the present, things given what they are today, there is much resentment among Purists that the films have, for now, supplanted the books in the minds of hundreds of millions of people. Jackson was too successful for them.

And I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't think that you have data to back up the hypothesis that (as I see it): Tolkien fanatics miffed by popularity of PJ films.

Do we even have poll results, and if so, are those exclusive to the Downs, which by chance or design may contain a higher than normal concentration of rabid anti-movie-ites?

Does anbody really care about what was correct or wrong about the Bakshi adaption? You just do not hear much about that? And does anybody really care about the Rankin-Bass TV adaptions if THE HOBBIT and ROTK? But mention the movies here - and on many other sites - and you get a real debate and temperatures can get a bit heated.

You see B (and a whole lot of that in recent weeks) and assume A. How many persons have ready access to the Bakshi/R-B films or have even watched them? When was the last time that they were on TV? One can discuss them here, but that would require the much pulling of teeth as, from experience, not many kept up with the dissection of the PJ EE DVDs, which are available (at discount) and are on free TV. And yet...

Yes, lots of time has passed since the first three adaptions and they are out of sight and out of mind. I admit that. But they also were not very successful and did not threaten to supplant the books in the public mind. And I do think that is a factor -- heck, its my thesis.

Different world back then, back when the best you could do was VHS, if that. Now, the DVDs are available shortly after the movie is released so you can view it multiple times and pick out every little gaff and post it on YouTube.

I truly believe that if the 3 Jackson adaptions had merely been moderate successes making little more money back than their cost, we would not be talking about it several years later. But we are.

You don't know the depths of boredom that I will do anything to keep from drowning in.

P.S. Note that there already is a book vs movie thread, but I'm not sure if it's for PJ's or other's works.

[Sauron the White]

from alatar

And I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't think that you have data to back up the hypothesis that (as I see it): Tolkien fanatics miffed by popularity of PJ films.

No data, no surveys, no polls, not even talk radio chatter. This is based on my experience on other JRRT related sites plus my few months here. I have not heard anyone saying "I RESENT THOSE BLANKETY BLANK MOVIES". But I do think the attitude and spirit is there in some. It couched in lots of other far more subtle and defendable verbage - but its still there.

from Kath

To say that Purists were jealous is an odd statement to make though. How can you be jealous of the films when you sit with the book in your hands and know you have the better version?

In my opening post I did not use the term jealous. I do not think this is the emotion that the purists feel. My term would be resentment. Macalaure posted some interesting thoughts saying it is as much the purist belief that PJ got it wrong as much as the popularity. And I can understand that. I don't believe that the book purists are jealous of the films and want the same level of success right now for the books. No - they are not jealous in that they are coveting the success of the films.

and from Quempel

Ralph Bakshi's version is laughable at best. It made me want to burn my eyes out. As Pheobe said on Friends, my eyes, my eyes.

In total agreement. It took me a good dozen years to get rid of the nagging idea that Boromir was a viking and Aragorn some lost member of a tribe of Native Americans.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

No data, no surveys, no polls, not even talk radio chatter. This is based on my experience on other JRRT related sites plus my few months here. I have not heard anyone saying "I RESENT THOSE BLANKETY BLANK MOVIES". But I do think the attitude and spirit is there in some. It couched in lots of other far more subtle and defendable verbage - but its still there.

I do not mean this to be mean, but you are the observer, and you may have some bias, or more probable , are the causal agent. And note that I doubt even my own eyes, and so I'm definitely not saying anything negative about you or that your observations are incorrect. I just know how wrong I can be (with the exception of anything negative I say about the Jackson films), and so...

In total agreement. It took me a good dozen years to get rid of the nagging idea that Boromir was a viking and Aragorn some lost member of a tribe of Native Americans.

It's not the images, it's the soundtrack! I've considered doing brain surgery on myself just to remove "Where there's a whip, there's a way!" And those other songs...ugh!

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by alatar

I've considered doing brain surgery on myself just to remove "Where there's a whip, there's a way!"

Wait -- you're joking, right? "Where There's a Whip There's a Way" totally rockz!

We don't wanna go to war today
But the lord of the lash says nay, nay, nay!

It's catchy, man! Not to mention it's almost canonical. And that groovy synth bass was state of the art at the time (okay, that part's not canonical, though). Besides, what other version of LotR makes you feel compassion for the hapless, lowly orc foot soldier?

Anyway, brain surgery won't work. Someone's bound to come along and hit you up with a YouTube link and then you have to take the power drill out all over again.

[Meriadoc1961]

I do not think jealousy has anything to do with it. I suppose that could be the case for a few people, but for most? No.

I, for one, am very happy the films did well, for I know it sparked interest in reading the books in more than one person I know personally, who previously did not read them.

I have not denied that I prefer the books, but I do not hate the movies at all. In fact, I am not ashamed to admit that I like the movies. Does that mean I do not think Jackson dropped the ball in many ways in how he handled, how he changed the characters, characters that needed no changing? No, it does not. I do believe he made some egregious errors in character manipulation, particularly in the portrayal of Faramir.

Merry

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

It's catchy, man!

And therein lies the problem. It's like a modern day version of Frodo's experience with the One Ring as he crawled across the Gorgoroth. The Whip song burns itself into your mind, and you can never ever again be free of its call.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

We can't however ignore the effect the movies have had on at least some readers, presumably of the younger sort. Moving through Web fora where the younger set hang out, this is typical of the opinions expressed:

"Yeah, I tried to read the books but never finished the first one. BOOO-OOORING! Almost no action or fighting, just a lot of descriptions and talking. Jackson did a good job cutting out most of the dull stuff and making those moldy old books exciting."

I wish I was making this up, but I'm not.

When I picked this book up I thought i was in for a treat. everyone told me how good it was but in reality, it was BORING! I read more captivating stories in my textbooks at school! It did have a very complex and very well thought plot line but other than that the only thing good about this book was the MOVIE!!!!!There wasn't one time that i read more than 5 pages without dozing off! In summary i didn't really enjoy this book snd wouldn't reccomend it to anyone unless they had difficulties sleeping!!!! By the way, did i mention BORING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

yeah well i only read half of the first book. i am TOTALLY obsessed with the movies, but i couldnt make it through the book. its too slow but yeah

"Well, the movie is coming out, and many people say this book is great, so I picked it up.

So far, it is everything I feared it would be.

I have read 130 pages filled with hobbit lameness, and the total cumulation of actual events could have easily been written in 20 pages, with a decent level of description and atmosphere. There is at least one superfluos poem or song every 3 pages

Actually I've always said that Peter Jackson did the "William Goldman version" of LotR. Goldman of course wrote the Princess Bride which he says is an abridged version of an older book by a man named Morgenstern. (It's not actually - the book is all Goldman's work.) The line is that Goldman abridged the book, leaving out all of the boring stuff and only keeping all of the interesting and exciting parts - the fights and chases and whatnot. Which is more or less what Jackson did with the movies

--from the National Novel-writing Month Forum!

while every loves the lord of the rings books, i thought this book was so boring i couldn't believe how everyone could love it! i thought most people didn't like to read yet claim they love this book? i mean, it seems so impossible! this book is so slow i couldn't believe i was still reading it. i have seen the movies and i love the movies but i couldn't make it past the part in the book when they leave the main village next to their hobbit village. i mean, it takes them 20 years to leave the hobbit village! then they are stuck doing a bunch of ridiculous things on the way to the next village. i guess it was some impending doom that was coming because they sure acting quickly! at this rate, they might die before they get the fight the bad guy since they were already so old

I personally have enjoyed the Lord of the Rings movies very much, but everytime i try to read the books, find that i cannot.The way Tolkein writes rather bores me.. I would swear that my math teacher had written them.

Of course, this is 21st-century America- where to the vast majority the name 'Notre Dame' means a football team.

[Bêthberry]

It's a frightening, frightening thing for True Believers to feel that there are alternate creeds out there gathering more souls and even reeling in apostates than the One, er, Three Good Books.

You know, this summer, I was talking with an eleven year old boy about Harry Potter. He was all excited after the latest movie release and last book release. So I asked him what he thought of the last book. And he said he didn't read it and won't read it as the books are too full of details and description and stuff and he can't wait to see the next movies.

To be fair to him, he's a second language English speaker.

But it gave me an insight into what PJ has done. He's made Middle-earth an experience even for those who don't or can't read English. Middle-earth was unreachable to people who don't know English (or who were dependent upon the frailties of translation.) But PJ has taken Middle-earth out of Tolkien's language-based concept and repatriated it for a completely different kind of territory, one not mapped by language or imagination so much as by sensory experience.

I think this is what might bug the Tolkians, that the word is now gone from the face of Middle earth.

Speaking entirely as someone who has not recited the Creed of Tolkien but who doesn't worship at the shrine of Jackson either.