Valar reproduction

[William Cloud Hicklin]

In some versions, Melkor 'violates' the Sun-Maia Arien.....

[cesar.ewok]

Hi, William.

The quenya name of the 'natural' body they used is fana (this body couldn't procreate). But, if they're willing, they can incarnate themselves in hröar, right? And shouldn't the body at least be able to procreate (once they'd be in the same condition and body of Elves, Men, kelvar...)?

[Lalwendë]

I'd presume that in order to breed, any of the Ainur would surely have to take the form of one of the species 'allowed' by Eru as he did not allow creation of new species, Morgoth could only corrupt what already existed, for example. So Melian took the form of an Elf in order to produce a child.

The idea that Orcs were originally created by lesser Maiar taking on physical form is an interesting one...would that logically equate to creating a new species or not though? Would that be allowable?

[alatar]

Weren't orcs made from elves? I've already provided one way to explain this phrase; another may be that, due to constraints by Eru in that the Maia could only take approved forms, the evil Maia circumvent this by taking the actual captured elf bodies and wearing them like wetsuits, then procreating in the standard physical world method.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by alatar

Weren't orcs made from elves? I've already provided one way to explain this phrase; another may be that, due to constraints by Eru in that the Maia could only take approved forms, the evil Maia circumvent this by taking the actual captured elf bodies and wearing them like wetsuits, then procreating in the standard physical world method.

That would depend on how quickly an Elf body deteriorated though, once dead. I know there is something specific about this in HoME X...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

That would depend on how quickly an Elf body deteriorated though, once dead. I know there is something specific about this in HoME X...

Not to get graphic, but what it it only took a little bit of time to impregnate an elf with the evil-maian taint, and then the body could be discarded as the damage is done.

Plus there sure were a lot of elves back in those days, and so with a properly stocked closet, you could make it through most social occasions.

"Does moriquendi make me look fat?"

[Lalwendë]

Meh!

I get you!

But the question remains, would Orcs be a distinct species? Would they then just be Maiar/Elves or what? We know they could not be a new species, and we have to presume they did eventually breed/reproduce independently given all the evidence (dispersed populations, many body types etc), but were they ever more than simply ugly half-breed Elves?