The Truth of the Uruk-hai

[Rumil]

Hi all,

interesting discussion here, but on this issue I think I side with Galin.

In my view orcs etc can be organised like this-

1- Orcs

1a- snagas, mountain maggots, 'The Hobbit' goblins -small orcs
1b- everyday orcs, Grishnakh's company, majority of Mordor orcs - medium orcs
1c- Uruks and Uruk-Hai of Mordor and Isengard - big orcs

2- Halforcs ie man-orcs, orc-men, goblin-men - Saruman's speciality
2a- Halforcs that are obviously orcish
2b- Halforcs that could be mistaken for men

Are there Uruk-hai in Mordor? Yes indeed- according to the tracker in Mordor

then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai; or maybe it's the whole lot together

Are halforcs and Saruman's Uruks different? I think UT implies this at the Battles of the fords of the Isen with

the sudden assault of the massed Uruks

followed a few lines later by

there appeared a company of men or orc-men

and

Theodred fell, hewn down by a great orc-man

where its clear that the elite company of orc-men is different from the heavily armed Uruks.

To say nothing of Aragorn's comments

[Galin]

And I'll look at Orcs and the Sun

I would think Orcs like to brag if they are good at something (or better than other orcs at something). Saruman's Isengarders don't appear to mind the Sun indeed, but why? This might be something 'new' that would be beyond Treebeard's general expectations, but the reason need not be because they have mannish blood (the Uruk-hai boast that they eat man's-flesh incidentally).

I note that immediately following the Northerners complaint about running under the Sun they are derided as 'half-trained' mountain maggots, which could possibly mean that Saruman's Uruks are indeed well-trained to endure it easily.

'By the White Hand! What's the use of sending out mountain-maggots on a trip, only half-trained. Run, curse you!' The Uruk-Hai

Of course that may be 'slim' evidence to some, but it looms large enough to me, coming in direct response to this concern from the chief of the Isengarders himself, and considering also that: the troop from Mordor run very well under the Sun too, and do not complain about it... and (by following the description in the text) it appears that even a few of the larger bolder Northerners run with the Isengarders.

In The Battles of the Fords of Isen (Unfinished Tales) Saruman has Dunlendings, Orcish wolfriders, followed by two battalions of Uruks ' ...the fierce Uruks, heavily armed but trained to move at great speed for many miles.' No specific mention of the Sun there of course, but we find they are trained to move at great speed when heavily armed. Also noting: 'It [the word uruk] referred, however, specially to the trained and disciplined Orcs of the regiments of Mordor.' JRRT Quendi And Eldar, War of the Jewels

Emphasis on training; and perhaps Saruman's lot are better trained (in general) than even many of Sauron's Uruks, but Sauron has numbers that Saruman cannot match, so his forces need to be at their best. I'll give you man-flesh (he promises) but you will train to be 'better' even under the Sun.

In The Battle Of The Pelennor Fields the Orcs of Mordor appear to fight on after the Sun shines (a great wind blew, and the rain went North). The hosts of Mordor, which I would say included Orcs (Orcs that are said, after Aragorn is revealed, to have hated the Sunlight), were actually heartened by the Black Sails. Éomer's words include singing in the Sun as he prepared to face Mordor, and then Aragorn and Company are revealed and a dread falls upon the enemy. Indeed these Orcs do not like the Sun but appear quite ready to battle on when thinking that the ships contained enemies of the West.

Orcs don't like the Sun. Perhaps even Saruman's Isengarders would prefer darkness if given the choice, but in any case the evidence appears to show that the Isengarders are arguably better at enduring it than others, and even possibly matched by 'larger, bolder' Northerners. Confusion again might arise at Helm's Deep as the Orcs (the Uruk-hai) and the half-orcs may not mind the Sun, but Gamling need not be equating half-orcs and Orc-men with the Uruk-hai.

The Mordorians run 'hour after hour' without complaint, and even when they drop back at one point, the text makes it clear that 'the writer of the tale' cannot know (or tell) the exact reason why (the writer gives two options for the Reader to entertain).

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Excellent points, Galin. I would add this, from Helm's Deep:

'What of the dawn?' they jeered. 'We are the Uruk-hai: we do not stop the fight for night or day....We come to kill, by sun or moon. What of the dawn?

Now at the beginning and end of this exchange the narrator tells us "The Orcs yelled and jeered;" and it is they (not the narrator) who repeatedly declare "We are the fighting Uruk-hai!"

Now it's entirely unclear whether these particular Uruks are purebreed Orcs, or hybrids more Orkish than human- but clearly they fit on the "orc" side of the ledger.

**********

Tolkien does however tell us that the Isengarders of Ugluk's command are superior (whether through breeding or training) to Grishnakh's crew: in his notes on the marching speed of the Orcs across Rohan, T states that Isengarders can go 'faster' (by some unspecified amount) than regular Uruks' 4 mi/hr; and that they only need 30 vice 60 minutes' rest every six hours.

************
Consider both the "half-trained" comment, which Ugluk makes it at the foot of the Emyn Muil, in the dark: "Run while night lasts!"; andwhen the 'maggots' truly start to lag, as the Rohirrim pursue them, there is no question that the Northerners' fatigue is connected with the sun:

They were flagging in the rays of the bright sun, winter sun shining in a pale cool sky though it was; their heads were down and their tongues lolled out.

'Maggots!' jeered the Isengarders. 'You're cooked!'

(The 'maggots' of course had expressed amazement at Ugluk's order earlier to keep on running by day). The Isengarders then put on a 'terrific spurt' of speed; Grishnakh's group, trailing, also begins to 'put on speed ' but it's unclear how much.

It's clear therefore that with regard to the mountain-Orcs and the Lugburz contingent 'training' (and perhaps Orc-breed) is the principal difference: even including resistance to the Sun (after all, the mountain-orcs hardly ever see it). As pointed out above, Mordor-orcs frequently manage to march and fight by day. Grishnakh's group in fact cover 100m in 35 hours straight, including 12 of daylight. But what of the Isengarders? Is their sun-resistance even better? Are Ugluk's bunch in fact hybrids, or are they simply superior in training and readiness?

Now they clearly regard themselves as Uruks, though of a superior type. Ugluk twice says words to the effect of "leave it to the Uruk-hai of Isengard to sort things out" Notably, he says this once to Grishnakh and once to one of his own trackers (addressed as "Snaga"). It would appear that the import is to distinguish U-h of I from, on the one hand, Uruk-hai of Mordor, and on the other hand lesser Orcs of Isengard. I have no problem associating Ugluk and his command with the Uruk-hai at Helm's deep referenced above. But are they hybrids?

We know that they are large, and carry both swords and bows that resemble those of Men rather than Orcs- but that could just be Saruman's quartermaster-general.

When we first see him, Ugluk is "a large black Orc." Grishnakh is "a short crook-legged creature, very broad and with long arms that hung almost to the ground." The Northeners are "smaller goblins." Well, that doesn't help much.

Perhaps more interesting is a subtle difference in accounts of the attacking force at Helm's Deep. Merry's account of the army talks about two groups of "Men"- those who are grim but not especially evil, obviously Dunlendings, and other with goblin-faces, like the "southerner" but even more Orkish. Then of course there were "endless lines of marching Orcs" as well as wolfriders. But when we read the aftermath of Helm's deep, these Orc-men have disappeared, apparently subsumed. Where? Theoden sets the Dunlendings to work and then releases them, whereas the Orcs are annihilated- there's no mention of Orc-men. Are they to be classed with the rest of the "Orcs," since they're plainly not Dunlendings?

I would propose, as a working hypothesis, that Uruks of all types can be *trained* to tolerate the Sun, although it is still detrimental to purebreed Orcs. In the Pelennor fields, it's interesting that from sunrise and the great Charge onwards the only effective enemies mentioned are various types of Men, until with Aragorn's arrival Imrahil drives various Southrons and "orcs that hated the sunlight;" and *men* fly before Eomer's face. The latter part of the battle, "hard fighting and long labour", again has Southrons and Easterlings as the only named enemies. It would appear as if once the Darkness breaks the Mordor-Orcs have become non-factors in the battle;* although they can function in sunlight, their effectiveness as warriors appears to be enormously compromised.

By contrast, the creatures of Saruman's breeding, including those sufficiently Orkish to consider themselves Uruks, simply don't mind the sun at all. This is what Treebeard observes of them, and what they say of themselves: and one would be forced to conclude that Saruman's Uruks did have sufficient admixture of human genes to tolerate sunlight; therefore, that all of Saruman's Uruk-hai and his non-Dunlending "Men" were hybrids, although his trackers and wolfriders were not necessarily so.


*Not to mention the mountain-trolls that wielded Grond, who presumably are now giant statues!

[Galin]

Littlemanpoet wrote: 'Also, eating man-flesh is no distinguisher of orcishness; cannibals eat man-flesh and they're men.'

Quite true but note also the seemingly derisive remark later: 'It's orc-flesh they eat, I'll warrant'. I'm not even close to being an expert on this but I think some forms of cannibalism are based on warfare and 'eating the enemy'. In this light at least, the Uruk-hai claim that they eat Men -- they eat the 'others' (or in the Primary World the 'other tribe' who are not 'us' but foes) -- and the scoffing comment could be something like (in my opinion): 'ha, you really eat 'us' (Orcs)'.

But however one interprets this, it's only a small part of the puzzle in any case.

William Cloud Hicklin wrote: 'I would propose, as a working hypothesis, that Uruks of all types can be *trained* to tolerate the Sun, although it is still detrimental to purebreed Orcs.'

OK but are you already interpreting here that there are Uruks ('Orcs') who are hybrid? My interpretation is that Uruks and Uruk-hai are Orcs, selectively or specially bred Orcs, trained and disciplined. Uruks were bred in Mordor (with no Men involved) and later, 'many' joined Saruman.

Would Saruman's Uruks be that much different from the large Uruks in Moria, and the huge, swart chieftain? Maybe, maybe not. Many compare the Isengarders to Grishnakh and Company, or to the Orcs at Cirith Ungol later, but the huge chieftain need not be the sole example in all of Mordor of such a formidable Orc.

'In the Pelennor fields, it's interesting that from sunrise and the great Charge onwards the only effective enemies mentioned are various types of Men, until with Aragorn's arrival Imrahil drives various Southrons and "orcs that hated the sunlight;" and *men* fly before Eomer's face. The latter part of the battle, "hard fighting and long labour", again has Southrons and Easterlings as the only named enemies. It would appear as if once the Darkness breaks the Mordor-Orcs have become non-factors in the battle;* although they can function in sunlight, their effectiveness as warriors appears to be enormously compromised.

I'm not sure I would agree that this characterization (enormously compromised by the Sun) appears to be so.

My interpretation: the initial charge of the Rohirrim was the great cause of sending Orcs fleeing towards the River 'like herds before the hunters'. Highly trained mounted warriors were very effective here (as expected), but on the 'further half of the plain were other hosts still unfought' -- the main force of the Haradrim for one -- and with respect to those horsemen who next charged the Rohirrim, note that 'fewer were they [the Rohirrim] but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest'. Indeed the Southron cavalry that was left alive turned and fled as well, so these fared little better than the Orcs, despite being horsed.

Of course there were more Haradrim, and ultimately the Rohirrim are in trouble; and Gothmog sends Easterlings, Variags, Southrons and men 'like half-trolls' into the fray. The Sun is shining but are all the Orcs gone? I think not but Tolkien merely generalizes with the 'hosts of Mordor' being 'enheartened, and filled with a new lust and fury' (because they thought the Corsairs had arrived of course). Then the 'hosts of Mordor' realize their mistake, and it is then that the knights of Dol Amroth drive the enemy before them: troll-men and Variags (repeating these forces from earlier in the text) and 'Orcs that hated the Sunlight' -- so to my mind there were still Orcs in the host (though simply unmentioned earlier), and now they are dealing with more cavalry!

And indeed as noted, there was yet more work to be done. But note too that the Southrons were described as 'fierce in despair', and the Easterlings asked for no quarter. I imagine however that if many Orcs still lived on the field they would arguably be looking for a way out, fleeing instead of rallying, and the text notes that there were those (in general) who fled to die, or drowned in the River. The Southrons and Easterling were arguably tougher to deal with due to size alone, not to mention they appear to have refused to flee once the tide had turned. Once one had decided it's 'to the death' (instead of 'for victory') that can heighten the effectiveness of already hardened warriors. They become the 'notable' opposition left yes, to someone writing about this great battle, but in short, the lack of mention of effective Orcs at this point need have nothing to do with the Sun -- or at least it need not mean their effectiveness was enormously (a strong word) compromised by it.

Did the Sun help? Probably not. Were the Mordorian Orcs as well trained to endure the Sun as Saruman's Uruks? Probably not in general but (back to earlier in the tale) the boasting of the Uruk-hai might tend to mispresent the actual measure of their 'dominance' in this -- indeed they are clearly better than most of the Northerners, yes, but that is not really under question here.

By contrast, the creatures of Saruman's breeding, including those sufficiently Orkish to consider themselves Uruks, simply don't mind the sun at all. This is what Treebeard observes of them, and what they say of themselves: and one would be forced to conclude that Saruman's Uruks did have sufficient admixture of human genes to tolerate sunlight; therefore, that all of Saruman's Uruk-hai and his non-Dunlending "Men" were hybrids, although his trackers and wolfriders were not necessarily so.'

However it is not clearly established (or agreed upon by all) that Treebeard has observed the Uruk-hai and only them -- and if indeed he has, he can be right that Saruman has mixed Orcs with Men (which is but one of his 'wonderings' of course, in any case), but still can be wrong if he thinks this applies to the Uruk-hai. Treebeard is working on a general principle here, and arguably needs more experience with the Orcs of the Third Age (and now that I think of it, I have yet to investigate if every pre-Third Age battle that included Orcs was always conducted under Darkness).

Within this hypothesis I note 'stepping stones' -- interpretations that help lead one down a certain path. Not necessarily 'wrong' ideas or unreasonable; if fact perfectly understandable and possible in my opinion, but not necessarily the only reasonable possibilities either. And so one is not really forced to conclude that Saruman's Uruks did have sufficient admixture of human genes to tolerate sunlight (and etc.), rather this conclusion is but a conclusion, not necessarily 'the' conclusion.

My theory includes different stepping stones of course, leading down a different path to a variant outcome.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

As I said, it's a working hypothesis- one (rough) way to explain the observed data.

There are two datum points which to me are anchors:

1) Saruman did indeed breed human-orc hybrids. This is not merely Treebeard's opinion, but something Tolkien explicitly stated.

2) The Uruk-hai at Helm's Deep declare proudly that the Sun doesn't bother them in the slightest: and the only explanation offered anywhere for such a thing lies in an admixture of Mannish genes.

From these two postulates I think it flows necessarily that Saruman bred some part of his Uruks with human stock. What proportion or which ones is much thornier territory.

(BTW: I'm fully prepared to condider Ghrishnakh and his band 'fully-trained soildier-Orcs', i.e. Uruk-hai. Their running performance is as astounding as Ugluk's, if not more so.)

[littlemanpoet]

Given that there are "squint eyes southerners" and "black Uruk-hai" - quite a range - it would appear that Saruman had been "at it" for at least four generations, if not more.

[Galin]

William Cloud Hicklin wrote: '... and the only explanation offered anywhere for such a thing lies in an admixture of Mannish genes.'

Hmmm, well is this a datum point? as in datum 'a fact or proposition used to draw a conclusion or make a decision', or a postulate? Since I have no problem with the latter, I will only get (admittedly) annoyingly pedantic with the former (if 'fact' is taken as the meaning by some). It gives me a chance to ramble on about my opinions in any case.



To my knowledge JRRT never states that some measure of Mannish blood is needed for Orcs not to mind the Sun. He might state it as a fact in something yet to be published, but obviously that's neither here nor there today. So I assume Treebeard's statement is meant by 'only explanation', which however I contend is not the only explanation that can be gleaned from the texts (though I need not repeat my ideas on training and Uruks).

To the thread in general: if Treebeard is wondering what Saruman has done to Orcs, then one of his 'wonderings' is yet that Saruman has possibly ruined Men -- which is technically doing something to Men not Orcs (or at least this follows from a reasonable interpretation of what he means). So here he is arguably only ruminating that Saruman has possibly ruined Men -- they are then 'orkish', and possibly that is what this is all about ('Orcs' are arguably concerned because of 'orkishness' and because of something he thinks about Orcs that doesn't quite add up here, and because of his next possibility).

OK, and of course his other 'wondering' is that Saruman has actually used Orcs and bred them with Men. And both these possibilities come from his ideas about Orcs and Sunlight of course. At this point Treebeard doesn't know if his second possibility is actually correct, no more than his first.

The Reader might know more later (especially if one has read Morgoth's Ring); indeed the Reader might realize Treebeard's second 'option' is correct, but what he or she also 'finds out' is that there are 'orkish' beings which indeed appear to be hybrids -- beings yet also seemingly distinguished from the Uruk-hai however (Merry's description). And as Rumil already pointed out, the Reader of Unfinished Tales also notes the apparent distinction between Orc-men and Saruman's Uruks.

So what was Treebeard right about (and wrong about) back when speaking to the Hobbits concerning ruined Men or interbreeding? I think we can all agree on that one, but importantly about whom did his correct 'wondering' apply?

I'm using 'wondering' instead of explanation because I think the latter term goes too far in implying a fact -- or if indeed I referred to Ugluk's comment ('half-trained' in connection with running under the Sun) I bet some would object that it's not necessarily an 'explanation'. What they both are, I think I can more safely say, are statements made by characters, not Tolkien, both which imply possibilities about Orcs and the Sun. And of course other factors get mixed in to make a given 'conclusion'.

Littlemanpoet wrote: Given that there are "squint eyes southerners" and "black Uruk-hai" - quite a range - it would appear that Saruman had been "at it" for at least four generations, if not more.

But there are 'black' Uruks from Mordor: 'In the last years of Denethor I the race of Uruks, black Orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath.' The Return of the King Appendices

Or, from draft text: The Heirs of Elendil published (though not by Tolkien himself of course) in The Peoples of Middle-Earth ...

'Denethor I. born 2375 lived 102 years died 2477. Great troubles arose in his day. The Morgul-lords having bred in secret a fell race of black Orcs in Mordor assail Ithilien and over-run it.'

Here's something about timeline...

'The Council seems to have been unaware, since for many years Isengard had been closely guarded, of what went on within its Ring. The use, and possibly special breeding, of Orcs was kept secret, and cannot have begun much before 2990 at earliest. The Orc-troops seem never to have been used beyond the territory of Isengard before the attack on Rohan.' Unfinished Tales

[littlemanpoet]

To borrow from Rumil:
In my view orcs can be organised like this-

1a- snagas, mountain maggots, 'The Hobbit' goblins -small orcs
1b- everyday orcs, Grishnakh's company, majority of Mordor orcs - medium orcs
1c- Uruks or Uruk-hai of Mordor - big orcs
1d- Uruk-Hai of Isengard - various shades of mixture of orc and Men
1e- Halforcs that are obviously orcish
1f- Halforcs that could be mistaken for men

1d through 1f are all Saruman's specialty.

Also, eating man-flesh is no distinguisher of orcishness; cannibals eat man-flesh and they're men.