The Truth of the Uruk-hai

[Galin]

Littlemanpoet wrote: 'Also, eating man-flesh is no distinguisher of orcishness; cannibals eat man-flesh and they're men.'

Quite true but note also the seemingly derisive remark later: 'It's orc-flesh they eat, I'll warrant'. I'm not even close to being an expert on this but I think some forms of cannibalism are based on warfare and 'eating the enemy'. In this light at least, the Uruk-hai claim that they eat Men -- they eat the 'others' (or in the Primary World the 'other tribe' who are not 'us' but foes) -- and the scoffing comment could be something like (in my opinion): 'ha, you really eat 'us' (Orcs)'.

But however one interprets this, it's only a small part of the puzzle in any case.

William Cloud Hicklin wrote: 'I would propose, as a working hypothesis, that Uruks of all types can be *trained* to tolerate the Sun, although it is still detrimental to purebreed Orcs.'

OK but are you already interpreting here that there are Uruks ('Orcs') who are hybrid? My interpretation is that Uruks and Uruk-hai are Orcs, selectively or specially bred Orcs, trained and disciplined. Uruks were bred in Mordor (with no Men involved) and later, 'many' joined Saruman.

Would Saruman's Uruks be that much different from the large Uruks in Moria, and the huge, swart chieftain? Maybe, maybe not. Many compare the Isengarders to Grishnakh and Company, or to the Orcs at Cirith Ungol later, but the huge chieftain need not be the sole example in all of Mordor of such a formidable Orc.

'In the Pelennor fields, it's interesting that from sunrise and the great Charge onwards the only effective enemies mentioned are various types of Men, until with Aragorn's arrival Imrahil drives various Southrons and "orcs that hated the sunlight;" and *men* fly before Eomer's face. The latter part of the battle, "hard fighting and long labour", again has Southrons and Easterlings as the only named enemies. It would appear as if once the Darkness breaks the Mordor-Orcs have become non-factors in the battle;* although they can function in sunlight, their effectiveness as warriors appears to be enormously compromised.

I'm not sure I would agree that this characterization (enormously compromised by the Sun) appears to be so.

My interpretation: the initial charge of the Rohirrim was the great cause of sending Orcs fleeing towards the River 'like herds before the hunters'. Highly trained mounted warriors were very effective here (as expected), but on the 'further half of the plain were other hosts still unfought' -- the main force of the Haradrim for one -- and with respect to those horsemen who next charged the Rohirrim, note that 'fewer were they [the Rohirrim] but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest'. Indeed the Southron cavalry that was left alive turned and fled as well, so these fared little better than the Orcs, despite being horsed.

Of course there were more Haradrim, and ultimately the Rohirrim are in trouble; and Gothmog sends Easterlings, Variags, Southrons and men 'like half-trolls' into the fray. The Sun is shining but are all the Orcs gone? I think not but Tolkien merely generalizes with the 'hosts of Mordor' being 'enheartened, and filled with a new lust and fury' (because they thought the Corsairs had arrived of course). Then the 'hosts of Mordor' realize their mistake, and it is then that the knights of Dol Amroth drive the enemy before them: troll-men and Variags (repeating these forces from earlier in the text) and 'Orcs that hated the Sunlight' -- so to my mind there were still Orcs in the host (though simply unmentioned earlier), and now they are dealing with more cavalry!

And indeed as noted, there was yet more work to be done. But note too that the Southrons were described as 'fierce in despair', and the Easterlings asked for no quarter. I imagine however that if many Orcs still lived on the field they would arguably be looking for a way out, fleeing instead of rallying, and the text notes that there were those (in general) who fled to die, or drowned in the River. The Southrons and Easterling were arguably tougher to deal with due to size alone, not to mention they appear to have refused to flee once the tide had turned. Once one had decided it's 'to the death' (instead of 'for victory') that can heighten the effectiveness of already hardened warriors. They become the 'notable' opposition left yes, to someone writing about this great battle, but in short, the lack of mention of effective Orcs at this point need have nothing to do with the Sun -- or at least it need not mean their effectiveness was enormously (a strong word) compromised by it.

Did the Sun help? Probably not. Were the Mordorian Orcs as well trained to endure the Sun as Saruman's Uruks? Probably not in general but (back to earlier in the tale) the boasting of the Uruk-hai might tend to mispresent the actual measure of their 'dominance' in this -- indeed they are clearly better than most of the Northerners, yes, but that is not really under question here.

By contrast, the creatures of Saruman's breeding, including those sufficiently Orkish to consider themselves Uruks, simply don't mind the sun at all. This is what Treebeard observes of them, and what they say of themselves: and one would be forced to conclude that Saruman's Uruks did have sufficient admixture of human genes to tolerate sunlight; therefore, that all of Saruman's Uruk-hai and his non-Dunlending "Men" were hybrids, although his trackers and wolfriders were not necessarily so.'

However it is not clearly established (or agreed upon by all) that Treebeard has observed the Uruk-hai and only them -- and if indeed he has, he can be right that Saruman has mixed Orcs with Men (which is but one of his 'wonderings' of course, in any case), but still can be wrong if he thinks this applies to the Uruk-hai. Treebeard is working on a general principle here, and arguably needs more experience with the Orcs of the Third Age (and now that I think of it, I have yet to investigate if every pre-Third Age battle that included Orcs was always conducted under Darkness).

Within this hypothesis I note 'stepping stones' -- interpretations that help lead one down a certain path. Not necessarily 'wrong' ideas or unreasonable; if fact perfectly understandable and possible in my opinion, but not necessarily the only reasonable possibilities either. And so one is not really forced to conclude that Saruman's Uruks did have sufficient admixture of human genes to tolerate sunlight (and etc.), rather this conclusion is but a conclusion, not necessarily 'the' conclusion.

My theory includes different stepping stones of course, leading down a different path to a variant outcome.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

As I said, it's a working hypothesis- one (rough) way to explain the observed data.

There are two datum points which to me are anchors:

1) Saruman did indeed breed human-orc hybrids. This is not merely Treebeard's opinion, but something Tolkien explicitly stated.

2) The Uruk-hai at Helm's Deep declare proudly that the Sun doesn't bother them in the slightest: and the only explanation offered anywhere for such a thing lies in an admixture of Mannish genes.

From these two postulates I think it flows necessarily that Saruman bred some part of his Uruks with human stock. What proportion or which ones is much thornier territory.

(BTW: I'm fully prepared to condider Ghrishnakh and his band 'fully-trained soildier-Orcs', i.e. Uruk-hai. Their running performance is as astounding as Ugluk's, if not more so.)

[littlemanpoet]

Given that there are "squint eyes southerners" and "black Uruk-hai" - quite a range - it would appear that Saruman had been "at it" for at least four generations, if not more.

[Galin]

William Cloud Hicklin wrote: '... and the only explanation offered anywhere for such a thing lies in an admixture of Mannish genes.'

Hmmm, well is this a datum point? as in datum 'a fact or proposition used to draw a conclusion or make a decision', or a postulate? Since I have no problem with the latter, I will only get (admittedly) annoyingly pedantic with the former (if 'fact' is taken as the meaning by some). It gives me a chance to ramble on about my opinions in any case.



To my knowledge JRRT never states that some measure of Mannish blood is needed for Orcs not to mind the Sun. He might state it as a fact in something yet to be published, but obviously that's neither here nor there today. So I assume Treebeard's statement is meant by 'only explanation', which however I contend is not the only explanation that can be gleaned from the texts (though I need not repeat my ideas on training and Uruks).

To the thread in general: if Treebeard is wondering what Saruman has done to Orcs, then one of his 'wonderings' is yet that Saruman has possibly ruined Men -- which is technically doing something to Men not Orcs (or at least this follows from a reasonable interpretation of what he means). So here he is arguably only ruminating that Saruman has possibly ruined Men -- they are then 'orkish', and possibly that is what this is all about ('Orcs' are arguably concerned because of 'orkishness' and because of something he thinks about Orcs that doesn't quite add up here, and because of his next possibility).

OK, and of course his other 'wondering' is that Saruman has actually used Orcs and bred them with Men. And both these possibilities come from his ideas about Orcs and Sunlight of course. At this point Treebeard doesn't know if his second possibility is actually correct, no more than his first.

The Reader might know more later (especially if one has read Morgoth's Ring); indeed the Reader might realize Treebeard's second 'option' is correct, but what he or she also 'finds out' is that there are 'orkish' beings which indeed appear to be hybrids -- beings yet also seemingly distinguished from the Uruk-hai however (Merry's description). And as Rumil already pointed out, the Reader of Unfinished Tales also notes the apparent distinction between Orc-men and Saruman's Uruks.

So what was Treebeard right about (and wrong about) back when speaking to the Hobbits concerning ruined Men or interbreeding? I think we can all agree on that one, but importantly about whom did his correct 'wondering' apply?

I'm using 'wondering' instead of explanation because I think the latter term goes too far in implying a fact -- or if indeed I referred to Ugluk's comment ('half-trained' in connection with running under the Sun) I bet some would object that it's not necessarily an 'explanation'. What they both are, I think I can more safely say, are statements made by characters, not Tolkien, both which imply possibilities about Orcs and the Sun. And of course other factors get mixed in to make a given 'conclusion'.

Littlemanpoet wrote: Given that there are "squint eyes southerners" and "black Uruk-hai" - quite a range - it would appear that Saruman had been "at it" for at least four generations, if not more.

But there are 'black' Uruks from Mordor: 'In the last years of Denethor I the race of Uruks, black Orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath.' The Return of the King Appendices

Or, from draft text: The Heirs of Elendil published (though not by Tolkien himself of course) in The Peoples of Middle-Earth ...

'Denethor I. born 2375 lived 102 years died 2477. Great troubles arose in his day. The Morgul-lords having bred in secret a fell race of black Orcs in Mordor assail Ithilien and over-run it.'

Here's something about timeline...

'The Council seems to have been unaware, since for many years Isengard had been closely guarded, of what went on within its Ring. The use, and possibly special breeding, of Orcs was kept secret, and cannot have begun much before 2990 at earliest. The Orc-troops seem never to have been used beyond the territory of Isengard before the attack on Rohan.' Unfinished Tales