The Balrog vs The Witch King

Originally Posted by obloquy

Besides, you're the one who asked what would happen if they fought.

The contest between these fell creatures is as much of wills than of might. My feeling is they would not fight each other physically, as I believe the battle here is a psychological one. It is also perfectly plausible that they could have met in Moria, in which case the Witch King would not be able to flee. For all we knew, the Witch King & his followers could have been hiding in the shadows of Moria until the Company arrived.

[Morwen]

Originally Posted by Mansun

The contest between these fell creatures is as much of wills than of might. My feeling is they would not fight each other physically, as I believe the battle here is a psychological one. It is also perfectly plausible that they could have met in Moria, in which case the Witch King would not be able to flee. For all we knew, the Witch King & his followers could have been hiding in the shadows of Moria until the Company arrived.

Whether the contest is a physical one or a battle of wills or both, the point is that the Balrog, in origin one of the Ainur like Sauron himself, is in a class above the Witch King. The contest is therefore not one between equals and the question to my mind isn't whether the Balrog can defeat the Witch King, but how long would he take to do so.

Originally Posted by Morwen

Whether the contest is a physical one or a battle of wills or both, the point is that the Balrog, in origin one of the Ainur like Sauron himself, is in a class above the Witch King. The contest is therefore not one between equals and the question to my mind isn't whether the Balrog can defeat the Witch King, but how long would he take to do so.

I think the Witch King, being overmatched in latent power, may well have been forced to neal to the Balrog in recognition of his status. The psychological pressure on him to do so would have been enormous. Though this is only one theory, as the Ring totally subdues the Witch King to only recognise Sauron as his master, so a hostile encounter cannot be ruled out.

[obloquy]

If you're talking about the type of spiritual battle I outline here, then I suppose I understand what you're talking about. But the concept barely applies to any battle involving the Witch-King since he has so little power on the spiritual plane. If the battle was one of wills (spiritual power), as you say, it would unquestionably be no contest at all. Which is why I am sure the Witch-King would have avoided such a confrontation, just as he avoided Glorfindel.

That said, I don't see why the Balrog would be hostile towards the Witch-King, since he would most likely recognize who he represents.

[Morwen]

Originally Posted by obloquy

That said, I don't see why the Balrog would be hostile towards the Witch-King, since he would most likely recognize who he represents.

I don't know. The Balrog's agenda, as far as we know from LotR, involves keeping Moria dwarf free and ridding it of random walking parties. Like Sauron, he is a former servant of Morgoth but I don't know that this would necessarily make him automatically sympathetic to Sauron or tolerant of the Witch King if he found him wandering through Moria.

[obloquy]

He may not have reason to be sympathetic, but that alone does not provide a reason for him to be hostile.

Originally Posted by obloquy

He may not have reason to be sympathetic, but that alone does not provide a reason for him to be hostile.

So, in effect you are saying the two could have coexisted. The Witch King & the Mouth of Sauron, for example, managed to do it. The difference here though is that both were in the service of Sauron, & their rank was clear. The Balrog had been at rest in Moria for a number of years without any call from Sauron, so how may one decide whether he still had allegiance to him?

[obloquy]

I have no idea what you're talking about. They could have coexisted indefinitely just as they coexisted up to the Third Age. Are you imagining the Witch-King packing up his stuff in Morgul and moving into an empty room in Moria? In that case, they both could definitely be expected to get on each others' nerves. Durin's Bane had probably grown accustomed to leaving his underwear laying around and the toilet seat up. The latter of which would truly have ruffled feathers, since, as we all know, the Witch-King sits down to pee.

Originally Posted by obloquy

I have no idea what you're talking about. They could have coexisted indefinitely just as they coexisted up to the Third Age. Are you imagining the Witch-King packing up his stuff in Morgul and moving into an empty room in Moria? In that case, they both could definitely be expected to get on each others' nerves. Durin's Bane had probably grown accustomed to leaving his underwear laying around and the toilet seat up. The latter of which would truly have ruffled feathers, since, as we all know, the Witch-King sits down to pee.

I have probably started more intellectual threads than any other poster at the Barrowdowns, & never before has anyone lowered themselves to this standard of posting. Mods, please get this post from obloguy removed asap.

Originally Posted by obloquy

I have no idea what you're talking about. They could have coexisted indefinitely just as they coexisted up to the Third Age. Are you imagining the Witch-King packing up his stuff in Morgul and moving into an empty room in Moria? In that case, they both could definitely be expected to get on each others' nerves. Durin's Bane had probably grown accustomed to leaving his underwear laying around and the toilet seat up. The latter of which would truly have ruffled feathers, since, as we all know, the Witch-King sits down to pee.

I cannot believe the mods did not delete this post. I think it is time to unleash a taste of Gandalf's staff on some naughty Hobbits out there!

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

And where the plague in the LOTR is this subject discussed?

In the same spot where a balrog once fought the Witchking: adjacent to the communal outhouse by the cottage in Crickhallow (hence its geographical significance in The Lord of the Rings).

P.S. Look, Mansun, I don't know why you are so up-in-arms regarding this. It's not like the original premise of the thread was anything more than fanciful conjecture. It is rather like any such Morgoth vs Sauron vs Smaug vs WitchKing post. Given the fact that Tolkien infers that the greatest foes of the Free Peoples (and that would be Morgoth, Sauron, Smaug, et al) were most likely to work in tandem against the West and not against each other, the discussions along this line are merely idle banter. The only record of such in-fighting occurs amongst the degenerate orcs, who had no real conception of their leaders' grand schemes, or perhaps the renegade Saruman, who, coveting the Ring, rebelled against his original allies and betrayed Sauron as well.

[Anárion Cúthalion]

Originally Posted by Morwen

I don't know. The Balrog's agenda, as far as we know from LotR, involves keeping Moria dwarf free and ridding it of random walking parties. Like Sauron, he is a former servant of Morgoth but I don't know that this would necessarily make him automatically sympathetic to Sauron or tolerant of the Witch King if he found him wandering through Moria.

If memory serves, Sauron was basically Morgoth's number two man (or rather, Maia). If that is true, that would mean the Balrog would be Sauron's servent.

[Gordis]

As far as I remember, it was not Sauron, but Gothmog the Balrog who was head of Morgoth's army. So who of the two was Morgoth's second remains a question.

Also we don't know if Sauron had been friends with Gothmog and other balrogs back in the First Age. They might have been bitter rivals.

I am not sure that Sauron himself would fare well if pitted one to one against a Balrog, even the Moria one, much less Gothmog. In the Third Age Sauron was fully incarnated, even self-reincarnated (twice) and that weakens a Maia. The Balrog was likely still a shape-shifter. Sauron might have won, but it would cost him dear.

Eönwë: Err... Gandalf? But then again, no-one except Cirdan knew exactly what he was.

The Witch-King likely knew exactly what Gandalf was. He had a long experience of observing the Maia Sauron at close quarters. Here is also this quote from "The Hunt for the Ring":

Oct. 3: Gandalf reaches Weathertop but does not overtake the Witch-king and other four Riders; for they become aware of his approach as he overtakes them on Shadowfax, and withdraw into hiding beside the road. They close in behind. The Witch-king is both pleased and puzzled. For a while he had been in great fear, thinking that by some means Gandalf had got possession of the Ring and was now the Bearer; but as Gandalf passes he is aware that Gandalf has not got the Ring. What is he pursuing? He himself must be after the escaping Bearer; and it must therefore somehow have gone on far ahead. But Gandalf is a great power and enemy. He must be dealt with, and yet that needs great force. - RC p.167

Eönwë:Yes, without Sauron he's just a mortal, however powerful and sorcerous (is that a word?). I think he still has the Gift of Men, however long it takes to reach him. A Maia is a Maia and cannot be truly killed- ever. Even an elf can't, so what makes anyone think a mere man, however powerful, could match a Maia.

The Witch-King had no idea that the One Ring was about to be unmade. While the Ring existed and the Nine Rings had power, the Gift of Men was not available to the Nazgul. If killed, they would likely become powerless spirits without a hroa, roaming Middle-Earth but unable to interact with the World of Light in any way - and that until the Rings existed. Basically it would be the same fate as for the Balrog or another wayward Maia when it is killed - eternal misery.
Nothing to look forward to, thus the Witch-King must have been much more reluctant to die than any mortal Man. He never fought against a stronger opponent when he could help it.

As for mortal Men, they were not as weak as some tend to think. Three Men killed a dragon (Turin, Fram and Bard), yet we know of no elf who had achieved the same. Beren fought Celegorm and Curufin and was in Angband, there were Turin, Tuor Elendil... but you know the story.

The Witch-King still had the same body he was born with. Albeit invisible, he had the high stature and strong muscles of a High Numenorean lord - and those were quite similar to Elves:

The Númenóreans, Kings among Men ... grew wise and glorious, and in all things more like to the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men; and they were tall, taller than the tallest of the sons of Middle-earth; and the light of their eyes was like the bright stars.-Akallabeth

On the plus side he had his sorcery, lots of experience, sharp senses and extra-endurence of a wraith. On the minus side he had his fear of fire (important against a Balrog) and his fear of death.
I would say he had some chances against the Balrog - at least to make it even.

[Nerwen]

Um... Gordis... what's a Barlog?

[Gordis]

Well, sorry, I often tend to type rl instead of lr . Another typical mistake of mine is "Erlond" - I really don't know why I do this, but I do, if I don't pay enough attention. I will go and correct the post above - it looks funny indeed.