The Balrog vs The Witch King

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I agree. By and large, I was trying to make the same point, that there was no extremely pressing need for the WK to use such magic power - unlike when trying to capture the ring, when that particular need was evidently present, but he didn't use such power. When comparing these two situations, the direct meaning of "added force" is the relevant one.

I don't see that the two situations are comparable - one is trying to get hold of the Ring from an individual bearer in the wilderness, the other is trying to get into a city by breaking its gate. His power & the question of whether or not it is enhanced at one point by Sauron doesn't seem to come into it. Frodo was never separated from the WK by city walls. If he had been behind such walls on Amon Hen, & if the WK had had a battering ram at his disposal, along with a massive army, I'm sure he would have taken the same approach to getting at him.

The question, to my mind, is if the WK had been in the same position (with armies & weapons) at the beginning of the hunt for the Ring as he was at the end would he have behaved differently - was he more powerful at the Siege than at Weathertop, or was he just restricted by the means he had at hand? I'd favour the latter.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

I don't see that the two situations are comparable - one is trying to get hold of the Ring from an individual bearer in the wilderness, the other is trying to get into a city by breaking its gate.

What I believe the issue to be is that in both occasions - attacking the city and attempting to retrieve the ring from Frodo in various occasions - the WK did use magic, but at definitely different levels, levels which are at odds with what we know of his motivations. Even if we presume that in both occasions the WK used the most of his power (although we agree that the Siege of Gondor was a far lesser reason to do so, than retrieving the ring), there is an obvious difference.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

We perhaps should be very careful of interpreting the Nazgul as warriors- a mistake Peter Jackson made from the start, fitting them out with armor and happily lopping off hobbit-heads- culminating in the absurd swordfight on Weathertop (directly contrary to Tolkien's criticisms of the Z script).

Leaving out the W-K, who appears certainly to outclass the rest, the 8 Associate Nazgul are never once depicted as wielding physical weapons (Frodo's vision at the Ford, of course, is of the Riders as they are on the "other side.")* They operate by fear, or by breaking morale. (As an old grognard, or player of board war-games, I would have killed for some unit which automatically exacted a -5 morale penalty on all enemy units!!) Yet this itself is a weapon with physical consequences, as we learn that a good dose of Black Breath can indeed prove fatal- indeed, Grima "came near to death by terror." In The Hunt for the Ring, the BR "drove off" the Rangers at Sarn Ford (after dark fell). We do learn that some of these were indeed "slain:" but was this by physical weaponry, or Black Breath?


*It's a very common misconception, not restricted to PJ, that the Nazgul raided the Prancing Pony. They didn't. Read closely and you'll see that it was Bill Ferney and the Southerner, perhaps with Harry Goatleaf, acting on the BR's instructions).

[Boromir88]

What I believe the issue to be is that in both occasions - attacking the city and attempting to retrieve the ring from Frodo in various occasions - the WK did use magic, but at definitely different levels, levels which are at odds with what we know of his motivations.~Raynor

No, just that the situations were different. Getting the Ring was the most important goal, but let's not forget at Pelennor Fields, by this time Aragorn had revealed himself to Sauron, causing Sauron to believe that Isildur's heir would use the Ring against him. This causes the hasty attack on Gondor, so the Siege of Minas Tirith is arguably just as important of a motive for the Witch-King as was trying to get the Ring.

As davem cogently explained the situations are quite different. On one side the Witch-King is trying to hunt down a hobbit that carries a Ring, but he is also looking for information. He doesn't want to frighten informants to death (or go busting down gates) and he isn't this agent of death as WCH explains. So, he has to conceal his power as he had done when he found Grima.

When he faces Gandalf on Amon Sul, than we see some sparks flying around. I fail to see why we would assume the pretty lights were all Gandalf's...as the Witch-King was referred to as a 'great sorcerer' several times.

At Pelennor, the situation calls for him to display his full power (as what we could say happened when he first faced Gandalf on Weathertop). As he is not looking for information, or for a hobbit that carries a Ring, he's trying to:

1. Destroy Minas Tirith
2. Faces a much stronger opponent in Gandalf

Also, I don't think obloquy is twisting around anything, there is a difference between....

'There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force.'

and

'There, put in command by Sauron, he is given added demonic force.'

The first one says the Witch-King, because of his command given by Sauron has an added demonic force (I take 'demonic force' to mean that he's scarier...as the entire part is about the fear the Witch-King inspires).

The second one says that because the Witch-King, because he was put in command by Sauron, he is given added power (that power being 'demonic force.')

Or let me try to put it this way...what is scarier? A dark figure, creepy looking Wraith who comes up and asks for directions or the same said wraith who is commanding an army of 45,000+ and is out to kill you?

I don't see how breaking down the gate and his tricks is a force that the Witch-King was incapable of displaying before Pelennor Fields. Because of the several instances where he is referred to as a 'great sorcerer,' also in his bout with Gandalf on Weathertop. The reason the Witch-King doesn't display this 'gate busting' power before is because there is no need for it, there is no reason to do so. He is trying to gather information on the Ring and ultimately end up bringing it back to Sauron, very different from trying to obliterate a city and beat an opponent far greater than him.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

When he faces Gandalf on Amon Sul, than we see some sparks flying around. I fail to see why we would assume the pretty lights were all Gandalf's...as the Witch-King was referred to as a 'great sorcerer' several times.

Possibly, although this is pretty much Gandalf's signature, as we see in the fight with the wolves after retreating from Caradhras.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

'There, put in command by Sauron, he is given added demonic force.'

The first one says the Witch-King, because of his command given by Sauron has an added demonic force (I take 'demonic force' to mean that he's scarier...as the entire part is about the fear the Witch-King inspires).

The second one says that because the Witch-King, because he was put in command by Sauron, he is given added power (that power being 'demonic force.')

Or let me try to put it this way...what is scarier? A dark figure, creepy looking Wraith who comes up and asks for directions or the same said wraith who is commanding an army of 45,000+ and is out to kill you?

Well, I don't buy this. If it was simply a matter of commanding an army, I believe that Tolkien would have used different phrasing. In fact, he says

But it was no orc-chieftain or brigand that led the assault upon Gondor...He was still in command, wielding great powers. King, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgul, he had many weapons.

This says to me that he is commander of the army (no trivial thing, to be sure), but also in command of other powers beyond these.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Boro

So, he has to conceal his power as he had done when he found Grima.

His power at that time, as it has been noted several times in this thread, last time by CSteefel, is mainly fear. That power, as The hunt for the ring, UT, informs us, cannot be in fact concealed, being the major drawback of using the nazgul. What still remains unaddressed is that the WK use of magic during the times he encountered Frodo is far inferior to the Pelennor Fields. It is these times that I have called into question, not when WK met informants or Gandalf. This is when he was closest to his ultimate goal in the mission, but failed to impress by magic, although it would have helped him a lot. The fact of the matter remains that, instead of confronting his enemies - as his power you attribute him at that time warranted -, he rather bids his time, waits for the morgul blade to take effect, flees from Aragorn and all that.

'There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force.'

and

'There, put in command by Sauron, he is given added demonic force.'

The first one says the Witch-King, because of his command given by Sauron has an added demonic force (I take 'demonic force' to mean that he's scarier...as the entire part is about the fear the Witch-King inspires).

The second one says that because the Witch-King, because he was put in command by Sauron, he is given added power (that power being 'demonic force.')

Then again, the main differences between these phrasings is not the presence or absence of "an" [I fail to see why each phrasing would exclusively warrant just that one interpretation you gave them] but the meaning of "demonic", which makes this exercise rather useless.

So, clearly the Witch-King must have done some sort of 'gate-busting' sorcery before Pelennor Fields, or he would not have been known to people as being a sorcerer.

Gandalf indulged in far less impressive shows of power and yet he was still known as a wizard.

And the Witch-King, seeing Gandalf was standing in his way completely unafraid, leaves that situation to go tend to another.

It's not because he sees him unafraid that he leaves.

This thread was meant to be about the Balrog vs the Witch King. It seems to have drifted into a Gandalf the White vs the enhanced Witch King scenario. This is ok, as long as posters can relate their thoughts back to the Balrog.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Mansun

This thread was meant to be about the Balrog vs the Witch King. It seems to have drifted into a Gandalf the White vs the enhanced Witch King scenario. This is ok, as long as posters can relate their thoughts back to the Balrog.

It really is now centered on the Witch King and whether or not his power was enhanced. And then, what his power really was. Gandalf is incidental, and only used to bolster the arguments pro and con, in the posts above.

As for the the WK versus the Balrog, I guess I am inclined to agree the Balrog would come out on top. The only possible caveat here is that the Witch King's power comes from Sauron, so we could not rule out completely an augmentation of the WK's power (something I believe that happened in the Pelennor Fields) to face a foe like the Balrog. But this is taking the speculation even farther... My point, however, is that the WK is not an independent power like the Balrog, but derives his power in large part from Sauron himself. This also implies that predicting his power from one case to the next might be difficult...

[obloquy]

The phrase's meaning does not hinge upon the "an," though the "an" is there only because Tolkien meant the phrase in a certain way. The sentence structure provides a very clear picture of what Tolkien meant, but I won't try to explain it in detail. However, note that he is talking about the Witch-King receiving the "force" and the command from two separate givers, as indicated by his need to specify that the Witch-King received the command from Sauron specifically. Before and after that interjection, Sauron is not the one effecting changes in the Witch-King's stature, it is the storyteller doing so. The storyteller gives the Witch-King an added demonic force in Vol III by having him receive command of an army from Sauron. That's what the sentence says. I am not twisting the phrase's meaning, I am gleaning its meaning from its structure.

Originally Posted by Raynor

His power at that time, as it has been noted several times in this thread, last time by CSteefel, is mainly fear. That power, as The hunt for the ring, UT, informs us, cannot be in fact concealed, being the major drawback of using the nazgul.

Tolkien does not actually say this. He says this of the Nazgul, but the Witch-King is "more powerful in all ways" than the others. You're right that the fear can't be concealed: so in the example of the Witch-King revealing himself that I provided below, what would you say he was previously concealing? Remember that this happened before Vol III and the Witch-King's alleged augmentation.

Originally Posted by Raynor

What still remains unaddressed is that the WK use of magic during the times he encountered Frodo is far inferior to the Pelennor Fields. It is these times that I have called into question, not when WK met informants or Gandalf. This is when he was closest to his ultimate goal in the mission, but failed to impress by magic, although it would have helped him a lot.

What magic might have helped him? A lightning sword?

Originally Posted by Flight to the Ford

Then the leader, who was now half across the Ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised up his hand. Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart labouring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand.

That's every bit as impressive as breaking a gate, right?

Originally Posted by davem

My problem with this argument is that its only a gate & doesn't need much effort to knock over if you've got a massive battering ram to hand.

I think Raynor must assume that the breaking of the gate is representative of other particular powers the Witch-King would have been stupid not to use in prior encounters. Like a magical lasso or something, I guess. davem is correct, though, and his posts have been good. As have Boromir88's: the Witch-King accomplished all manner of death and destruction (which no other Nazgul did) prior to his presence in LotR, and Tolkien's reference to an increase of stature in Vol III is relative only to the Witch-King's stature in Vol I and Vol II, not his pre-LotR stature.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by obloquy

The storyteller gives the Witch-King an added demonic force in Vol III by having him receive command of an army from Sauron. That's what the sentence says. I am not twisting the phrase's meaning, I am gleaning its meaning from its structure.

Hmmm, why is giving somebody command of an army a "demonic force". If Tolkien had meant that, why not just say "Sauron gave the Witch King command of his armies". The adjective "demonic" doesn't make much sense when applied to an army of non-magical beings (Southrons, orcs and the like)...

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Gandalf indulged in far less impressive shows of power and yet he was still known as a wizard.

Yes - & that's the point. Gandalf didn't go around busting bridges & killing Balrogs, but he could still do it when it was necessary. Just because he hadn't whacked a Balrog up to that point doesn't prove he was suddenly gifted with extra power in Moria in order to do so. In the same way, just because the WK hadn't knocked over a big gate before doesn't prove he wasn't capable of doing it without a power up.

My problem with this argument is that its only a gate & doesn't need much effort to knock over if you've got a massive battering ram to hand. What other evidence is there for enhanced power? One could argue that if he had the power to smash a gate he should have avoided getting into hand to hand combat with that blonde bird & just zapped her. He tends to enjoy the experience of terrorising his victims & is very much a hands on kind of guy.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

It really is now centered on the Witch King and whether or not his power was enhanced.

I agree; the issue of the WK's power was a thorny one and it got this whole branch started.

Originally Posted by davem

Gandalf didn't go around busting bridges & killing Balrogs, but he could still do it when it was necessary.

That necessity was more than present previously and unlike Gandalf he had no restrictions. As I mentioned:

What still remains unaddressed is that the WK use of magic during the times he encountered Frodo is far inferior to the Pelennor Fields. It is these times that I have called into question, not when WK met informants or Gandalf. This is when he was closest to his ultimate goal in the mission, but failed to impress by magic, although it would have helped him a lot. The fact of the matter remains that, instead of confronting his enemies - as his power you attribute him at that time warranted -, he rather bids his time, waits for the morgul blade to take effect, flees from Aragorn and all that.

[Boromir88]

It is these times that I have called into question, not when WK met informants or Gandalf.~Raynor

But what this does show is that prior to the battle of Pelennor Fields the Witch-King was capable of using magic...so busting down a gate and lighting up a sword doesn't mean he suddenly had a boost of power. Why doesn't he use any of his sorcery when he encounters Frodo on Weathertop? I don't know, but he did us it when he encountered Gandalf on Weathertop. Or could it be that his task was different?

As I've said the Witch-King is hunting for the Ring, he's not out trying to kill anyone...not even the Ringbearer:

'They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under his command. You would have become a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; and he would have tormented you for trying to keep his Ring; if any greater torment were possible than being robbed of it and seeing it on his hand.'~Many Meetings

Sending a jolt of fire from his eyes to fry Frodo wouldn't have been torment enough for Frodo. Sauron wanted this Ringbearer to suffer not have a quick and easy death.

That necessity was more than present previously and unlike Gandalf he had no restrictions.

But the quote above certainly makes it seem like Sauron limitted what the Witch-King was able to do. He wasn't trying to burn down the Shire or kill anyone who opposed him (he wasn't even supposed to kill the Ringbearer). He was to find out the location of the Ring and not only get the Ring, but also the Ringbearer, so the said Ringbearer could suffer.

At Pelennor Fields his is not limitted anymore. His objective isn't to bring people to Sauron to suffer...his objective is to completely trash Minas Tirith and kill all those who oppose him.

Gandalf indulged in far less impressive shows of power and yet he was still known as a wizard.

Aye, but Tolkien also refers to the Nazgul as sorcerers...and it is also the 'great wizard' Gandalf who calls the Witch-King a 'great sorcerer.'