Inching closer to The Hobbit film - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Sauron the White · 10-11-2007, 11:13 AM

Middle-earth for children. For 33 years I taught public school. The last 23 as a high school teacher of 17 and 18 year olds. However, my degree and certification was for all grades. I distinctly recall taking two courses in Childrens Literature for my masters degree. I even had a hand in forming some childrens books of my own when I created a series of characters and the basic plot of a book called ODDKINS written by Dean Koontz. So I am not a virgin in the world of what children read and what appeals to them.

I have a grandson who will be six in a few weeks. He has already seen all three of the LOTR films- each and every scene without censorship - and (as of this writing) has not decapitated any of his fellow first graders at school attempting to emulate the Mouth of Sauron scene or, his personal favorite, Aragorn dispatching Lurtz in FOTR. He does very well at school and seems normal. Because some nameless person in the family indoctrinated him into the world of Middle-earth when he was just four, it is his favorite thing in the world.

I see nothing in the HOBBIT which would preclude anyone his age from seeing a film done in the style of LOTR. Jackson could make THE HOBBIT with every scene as JRRT wrote it, then adapting it to fit into the style of LOTR, and even stretching out the Battle of the Five Armies making it the Helms Deep of the piece. I see nothing there that kids could not see. Let us remember that these are the children of the 21st century not the kiddies of pre WWII times.

The budget on this film will be at least $100 million dollars US and probably closer to double that once all is said and done. No studio that I am aware of will allow that kind of money to be spent on a kiddie film aimed at ages 5 through 9. Not a one. And besides, kids at that age today would have little interest in seeing a dumbed down, sanitaized movie that harkens back to the decade of the Great Depression. It simply is not going to happen.

Folwren · 10-11-2007, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

I see nothing in the HOBBIT which would preclude anyone his age from seeing a film done in the style of LOTR. Jackson could make THE HOBBIT with every scene as JRRT wrote it, then adapting it to fit into the style of LOTR, and even stretching out the Battle of the Five Armies making it the Helms Deep of the piece. I see nothing there that kids could not see. Let us remember that these are the children of the 21st century not the kiddies of pre WWII times.

Okay, forget the kids. What about me and other people like me? I'm nineteen and I still hide my eyes during battle scenes when they do close ups of people getting hacked to pieces and arrows going through orcses eyes. In theater I rolled up in a ball with my arms clasped about my ears and my eyes tight shut as the captain in Osgiliath was killed with a spear through his chest. It's disgusting, and while I accepted it for LotR because it was meant for adults, I don't think it'll be nice to watch it in The Hobbit.

Quote:

And besides, kids at that age today would have little interest in seeing a dumbed down, sanitaized movie that harkens back to the decade of the Great Depression. It simply is not going to happen.

We're not asking it to be dumbed down. We're asking the opposite. There are other things beside violence and 'dumbed down' humor relief that makes movies good, and that's what I believe davem is saying.

Sauron the White · 10-11-2007, 02:15 PM

from Folwren

Quote:

Okay, forget the kids. What about me and other people like me? I'm nineteen and I still hide my eyes during battle scenes when they do close ups of people getting hacked to pieces and arrows going through orcses eyes. In theater I rolled up in a ball with my arms clasped about my ears and my eyes tight shut as the captain in Osgiliath was killed with a spear through his chest.

That was your honest reaction and you are entitled to it. I do have an sincere and serious question for you. Do you think that your reaction is typical of todays filmgoer? I am not trying to cast any doubts as to your intestinal fortitude but I saw the movie a dozen times in the theater and never once saw anybody around me who had that severe of a reaction to anything in the film.

If Tolkien wrote it, or wrote about it, or wrote scenes in which that type of thing very likely did take place (like carnage at Helms Deep which may not have been as specific in the books but which most certainly was part of it) it would seem fair game for inclusion by a filmmaker.

While I certainly am not a subscriber to magazines like Fangoria or other blood-and-guts valentines to sadism, I do see nothing wrong with a somewhat realistic portrayal of battlefield violence. In fact, I remember from my youth in the Fifties -- a time which was sanitaized to protect us little ones - when a person would get shot, there was no wound, no blood, no real effects at all. You can make a case that type of thing is far more harmful to ideas about real violence than a realistic portrayal is.

I guess if JRRT wrote it in THE HOBBIT, then its fair game for a filmmaker.

Child of the 7th Age · 10-12-2007, 02:58 AM

Quote:

I guess if JRRT wrote it in THE HOBBIT, then its fair game for a filmmaker.

Since the movie rights have been sold off, it is indeed fair game for a filmaker. I think we can be fairly certain that the Hobbit will not be presented as a children's film, although it was written as a children's book. Given PJ's overall filmaking resume and the tone of the LotR, I do not expect him to make a children's film. I am assuming that what we will get will be a prequel to LotR. Certain events and characters will be included in a two-part film that did not actually occupy a major place in the book. Hopefully, there will be logical reasons for what is included in this "expanded" Hobbit.

Would Tolkien roll over in his grave at the thought of an "adult" Hobbit. I'm not so sure. After all, he himself tried to revise it to make it a true prequel to LotR. He gave it up very quickly but the mere fact he tried to do it says a lot.

I am not a PJ hater. For the most part, I enjoyed the films and am glad they were made. They certainly introduced a lot of people to the books that would probably not have come to them any other way. The film will undoubtedly be more violent than the book. I can accept that. (And my daughter, ten at the time Fellowship came out, was one of those hiding her head in her hands at some parts of the film.) But I do hope that at least some of the "whimsy" and gentle humor of the Hobbit will be retained in the film. It would be a shame if all that was dropped. We shall see....

HerenIstarion · 10-12-2007, 03:55 AM

Though I remember being asked not to discuss the director preferences but exchange news in this thread... most part of discussion up to now has been, well, a discussion of tastes and not mere exchange of news at all

So safe enough for me to plunge in I reckon...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

Hopefully, there will be logical reasons for what is included in this "expanded" Hobbit...

...But I do hope that at least some of the "whimsy" and gentle humor of the Hobbit will be retained in the film. It would be a shame if all that was dropped. We shall see....

My feeling exactly. Though, if I were to be honest, I'd prefer someone else. Or whole crew of 'someone elses'. Ones that would not pointlessly add/cut/paste the way they did it in LoTR. 'Epic by Jackson, (C)) is all very fine, but all in all, after watching LoTR several times, I have a feeling there is nothing but epic in it. I've purchased copies as they came out (ordering them overseas through Amazon). But these last two years or so, I've lended them and am not too eager to ask them back, not even sure who exactly of the borrowers has them at the moment.

Probably I'll watch TH regardless of who films it, kind of a must do I assume

But probably once.

Finduilas · 10-12-2007, 06:56 AM

Talked to family last night, well only Mom, Pop, and sister, and parents said that they wouldn't mind a PJ'ed version, as long as you didn't see things that Tolkien didn't put in. They mentioned Helms Deep, and said they wouldn't want a chapter to take an hour again. Also, I brought up Beorn, as it was mentioned in this thread, and they said that since all that was in the book was Beorn with the skin and head, that is all that should be in the movie.

STW asked Folwren if she thought that all veiwers reacted the same way as she did. I'm sure they probably didn't. But that really isn't excusable. Just because this generation is exposed to everything doesn't mean they should be.

Bêthberry · 10-12-2007, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

Though I remember being asked not to discuss the director preferences but exchange news in this thread... most part of discussion up to now has been, well, a discussion of tastes and not mere exchange of news at all

So safe enough for me to plunge in I reckon...

My feeling exactly. Though, if I were to be honest, I'd prefer someone else. Or whole crew of 'someone elses'. Ones that would not pointlessly add/cut/paste the way they did it in LoTR. 'Epic by Jackson, (C)) is all very fine, but all in all, after watching LoTR several times, I have a feeling there is nothing but epic in it. I've purchased copies as they came out (ordering them overseas through Amazon). But these last two years or so, I've lended them and am not too eager to ask them back, not even sure who exactly of the borrowers has them at the moment.

Probably I'll watch TH regardless of who films it, kind of a must do I assume

But probably once.

It is always good to see a post from the Deadnight Chanter! Hi HI. And of course your timely return reminds us that you were one of the first Downs Daddies. How's the son? and wife of course too. Any new pictures? Have you read TH to him yet? In Engish or Russian?

As for watching TH once or more, I suppose it depends on how this two part film smorgashboard comes out. Would we be subjected to a similar kind of release, Part One one year, Part Two the year following? Frankly, even with padding and making up Legendarium stuff to fill it out, I wonder if the second wouldn't end up feeling like we've all over eaten. (Certainly all the battle scenes in RotK left me feeling that way.)

***Mister Underhill*** · 10-12-2007, 12:51 PM

If the filmmakers dramatize everything that's alluded to in TH, they could come up with a lot of event. I could see them opening up with Smaug's original attack on Lonely Mountain, for instance, or even with Gandalf encountering Thrain in the dungeons of Dol Guldur, though they'd have to be careful with that scene since they don't have rights to UT, which as I recall has a fuller account of how Gandalf obtained the map and the key.

The problem I foresee for a two-part adaptation is that part two would be battle heavy: the White Council's attack on Dol Guldur, Smaug running amok on Dale, and then of course the Battle of Five Armies. I suppose if you tweak and fuss you might be able to climax the first film with the attack on Dol Guldur, perhaps intercut with Bilbo & Co defeating the spiders only to be taken prisoner by Elves, as a sort of cliffhanger.

Of course, it's easy to see how the story of poor little Bilbo might get a little lost amidst all those fireworks.

davem · 10-12-2007, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

The budget on this film will be at least $100 million dollars US and probably closer to double that once all is said and done. No studio that I am aware of will allow that kind of money to be spent on a kiddie film aimed at ages 5 through 9. Not a one. And besides, kids at that age today would have little interest in seeing a dumbed down, sanitaized movie that harkens back to the decade of the Great Depression. It simply is not going to happen.

Well, they don't have to make the movie, do they? You seem to be implying that the movie has to be made, & that the best has to be made of a bad job: The Hobbit movie must be made, but, tragically, it can't be made for children, & the tale must be re-written to include dwarf tossing jokes, beheadings & inhabitants of Esgaroth being turned into human torches by Smaug (& then running three laps around the Long Lake, climbing the Lonely Mountain & hurling themselves from the summit, no doubt ...)

If they don't want to make the Hobbit movie suitable for the same audience as the book they can leave it alone & make something else.

Sauron the White · 10-12-2007, 05:21 PM

Perhaps what places me in a different category than some others is that I try to deal with reality. I am not attempting to predict the future but simply speculate on - what for the moment - appears to be the inevitable, a HOBBIT film. It looks like a deal will come soon, and if not, will then more than likely come a few tears later. But come it will.

I also accept the reality of the business aspect of movie making complete with its financial budgets and expectations of return of investment. I also understand what a target audience is.

Another difference is that I do not climb the five-hundred steps each day to better see the lowly world from my Ivory Tower in the Sky.

10-12-2007, 06:56 AM	#6
Finduilas Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Home. Where rolling green hills and clear rivers are practically my backyard. Posts: 595	Talked to family last night, well only Mom, Pop, and sister, and parents said that they wouldn't mind a PJ'ed version, as long as you didn't see things that Tolkien didn't put in. They mentioned Helms Deep, and said they wouldn't want a chapter to take an hour again. Also, I brought up Beorn, as it was mentioned in this thread, and they said that since all that was in the book was Beorn with the skin and head, that is all that should be in the movie. STW asked Folwren if she thought that all veiwers reacted the same way as she did. I'm sure they probably didn't. But that really isn't excusable. Just because this generation is exposed to everything doesn't mean they should be. __________________ One (1) book of rules and traffic regulations, which may not be bent or broken. ~ The Phantom Tollbooth

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10-11-2007, 11:13 AM	#1
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	Middle-earth for children. For 33 years I taught public school. The last 23 as a high school teacher of 17 and 18 year olds. However, my degree and certification was for all grades. I distinctly recall taking two courses in Childrens Literature for my masters degree. I even had a hand in forming some childrens books of my own when I created a series of characters and the basic plot of a book called ODDKINS written by Dean Koontz. So I am not a virgin in the world of what children read and what appeals to them. I have a grandson who will be six in a few weeks. He has already seen all three of the LOTR films- each and every scene without censorship - and (as of this writing) has not decapitated any of his fellow first graders at school attempting to emulate the Mouth of Sauron scene or, his personal favorite, Aragorn dispatching Lurtz in FOTR. He does very well at school and seems normal. Because some nameless person in the family indoctrinated him into the world of Middle-earth when he was just four, it is his favorite thing in the world. I see nothing in the HOBBIT which would preclude anyone his age from seeing a film done in the style of LOTR. Jackson could make THE HOBBIT with every scene as JRRT wrote it, then adapting it to fit into the style of LOTR, and even stretching out the Battle of the Five Armies making it the Helms Deep of the piece. I see nothing there that kids could not see. Let us remember that these are the children of the 21st century not the kiddies of pre WWII times. The budget on this film will be at least $100 million dollars US and probably closer to double that once all is said and done. No studio that I am aware of will allow that kind of money to be spent on a kiddie film aimed at ages 5 through 9. Not a one. And besides, kids at that age today would have little interest in seeing a dumbed down, sanitaized movie that harkens back to the decade of the Great Depression. It simply is not going to happen.

10-12-2007, 12:51 PM	#8
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,744	If the filmmakers dramatize everything that's alluded to in TH, they could come up with a lot of event. I could see them opening up with Smaug's original attack on Lonely Mountain, for instance, or even with Gandalf encountering Thrain in the dungeons of Dol Guldur, though they'd have to be careful with that scene since they don't have rights to UT, which as I recall has a fuller account of how Gandalf obtained the map and the key. The problem I foresee for a two-part adaptation is that part two would be battle heavy: the White Council's attack on Dol Guldur, Smaug running amok on Dale, and then of course the Battle of Five Armies. I suppose if you tweak and fuss you might be able to climax the first film with the attack on Dol Guldur, perhaps intercut with Bilbo & Co defeating the spiders only to be taken prisoner by Elves, as a sort of cliffhanger. Of course, it's easy to see how the story of poor little Bilbo might get a little lost amidst all those fireworks.

10-12-2007, 05:21 PM	#10
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	Perhaps what places me in a different category than some others is that I try to deal with reality. I am not attempting to predict the future but simply speculate on - what for the moment - appears to be the inevitable, a HOBBIT film. It looks like a deal will come soon, and if not, will then more than likely come a few tears later. But come it will. I also accept the reality of the business aspect of movie making complete with its financial budgets and expectations of return of investment. I also understand what a target audience is. Another difference is that I do not climb the five-hundred steps each day to better see the lowly world from my Ivory Tower in the Sky.