Inching closer to The Hobbit film

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Aragorn shows up at the attack on Dol Guldur.

2931 Aragorn son of Arathorn II born on March 1st.
2941 The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River. Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur.

At the age of 10?... Though I would not put it past 'filmmakers' to tweak it a bit, why not if just a dozenful of years later another entry reads as

2956 Aragorn meets Gandalf and their friendship begins.

How's the son? and wife of course too. Any new pictures? Have you read TH to him yet? In Engish or Russian?

A little trouble with bronchial tubes for last two months but otherwise ok
http://www.geocities.com/gl_century/...s/DSC02417.jpg
Read bits (English) - he tends to take away the book and play with it (= tear it apart with no malicious intentions, just for the fun of it)

Aye, he's already far too fond of adventure and mischief to be from the respectable side of the Baggins tree. A strong dash of Tookishness for sure, I reckon.

If mine were not a wizardling as he is coming from HerenIstarion, I would sign my name under the quote

Another difference is that I do not climb the five-hundred steps each day to better see the lowly world from my Ivory Tower in the Sky

You're too harsh with us. After all a movie may be a cash harvest and therefore a 'success', but that doesn't mean it won't be a ruin of a book. That last part we (I at least) begrudge the possible potential likely filmmakers.

Besides, with regards to 'kids movie that is going to fail' - Narnia movie has been made targeting kids for an audince and came out better for that (I believe) and did not fail financially either, did it?

[davem]

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

Besides, with regards to 'kids movie that is going to fail' - Narnia movie has been made targeting kids for an audince and came out better for that (I believe) and did not fail financially either, did it?

Exactly - you don't have to aim a movie at seven year olds, but you do have to make a movie that suitable for, & understandable by, seven year olds. The idea that something that 'belongs' to children will be taken from them & turned into 'adult' (or at least teenage) fare, is depressing & simply unfair. And it would be done simply to boost the profits of New Line & Warner.

The idea of a Hobbit movie with the kind of graphic violence & horror we saw in the LotR movies is just unacceptable to me.

[Sauron the White]

from HerenIstarion

You're too harsh with us. After all a movie may be a cash harvest and therefore a 'success', but that doesn't mean it won't be a ruin of a book. That last part we (I at least) begrudge the possible potential likely filmmakers.

Besides, with regards to 'kids movie that is going to fail' - Narnia movie has been made targeting kids for an audince and came out better for that (I believe) and did not fail financially either, did it?
__________________

I certainly do not want a book to be ruined. But I wonder how that can happen since the book will still exist as the book regardless of any film. But I do concede the validity of your concern. Nobody wants to see something they love turned into a travesty.

Regarding Narnia - I simply loathe almost any book or film which kisses the collective behinds of kids by thrusting children into the role of heroes as Narnia did. I taught school for 33 years- the first ten from grades 6 through 8 and then high school. The idea of the average kid, or even above average child saving the world is truly absurd. Most of these kids have difficulty going through simple daily tasks let alone saving the world. Remembering the proper books and supplies to bring to class is a major chore and too much for many of them. I cringe when I see Narnia age children outdueling evil adults with mystical powers. I rooted for the burglars in HOME ALONE.

Of course, THE HOBBIT is not handicapped by children in the lead roles or in hero roles. I would have no problem with a HOBBIT that had the tone of NARNIA or ET.

I cannot forsee the future but I would expect that Jackson (if it is PJ) would attempt to synthisize the world we already know through the first 3 LOTR films with what we know of THE HOBBIT. I imagine that Jackson and the writers will make much of the true fact that JRRT himself attempted to update his tale and make it more consistent with LOTR and they will do the same. I would hope that much of the whimsy and sweetness of the tale is kept while expanding the Five Armies sequence or adding other elements to fill in the blanks.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Most of these kids have difficulty going through simple daily tasks let alone saving the world.

That's what makes them good books for me and probably for them. You can't aspire to something you can do perfectly well on daily basis yourself. I can't model my behavior and be thrilled by a story of a man who ate his eggs and bacon, went to the office, sat out boring morning there doing his duty reasonably well, than dined, slacked a little as you can't work well on full stomach, did the rest of his duty half-as-well as in the morning and than went home to do homely chores. I'm that man, I don't need a guide there. His story doesn't give me 'trembling inside' The very impossibility (or is it? why? have we been there and tried? what if we did if we did if you follow my meaning, merciful sir?) is what attracts in the books of the kind.

Bilbo (and Frodo for the matter) was as unlikely 'to do a hero' as any kid would be to save the world (see above about what ifs, though), but the very fact they actually did is what makes it most astonishing wonderful

I suppose that you (with full respect to your experience as a teacher yet still) underastimate what children are capable of perceiving. As far as I remember (and been reading since age of six, starting with Three Musketeers I believe), I always was able to detect things that were 'conditional', but as soon as they were part of the 'rules' which worked within given book, they were ok. Willing suspension of disbelief I believe (pun intended ) the process have been called by Tolkien

If I wanted a book about myself as I am in this time and place, I'd read something along realism lines. But I know the parts of myself revealed by my daily life well enough. I need different mirror.

[Sauron the White]

HerenIstarion ... I do understand your point about not wanting to see all of our mundane daily existences played out on the screen. Perfectly clear on that and I agree with you. My point about kids as heroes is that it is way off the end of the Absurd-O-Meter. The average ten year old kid cannot even take the trash out thirty feet from the house and will sit there letting it stink up the house for days as long as they can still play their mindless video games. If you give them a two week assignment in class, you had better have daily reminders stressing how much time has passed and how close that deadline is. And then when the day arrives be prepared to read several poorly written notes from parents asking for extensions due to the most extreme of emergencies. I once (back in the early 70's) had a kid in junior high bring in a parental note asking to retake the final exam because they had polio over the weekend. Thats POLIO for heavens sake. Nobody gets polio for a few days and then recovers.

So watching some self absorbed pre-adolescents save the world is just not my cup of tea. That one middle kid in Narnia drove me absolutely crazy. I wanted him to get killed in the worst sort of way. He screws up everything for his brothers and sisters due to his own faults and then whines about it while everyone struggles to pull his bacon out of the fire. Gimmeabreak.

Yes, there are highly intelligent exceptional children. But tell me of an instance in reality where they saved the world.

Bilbo (and Frodo for the matter) was as unlikely 'to do a hero' as any kid would be to save the world (see above about what ifs, though), but the very fact they actually did is what makes it most astonishing wonderful

I would take issue with this. Bilbo and Frodo were not children. The possessed reason, maturity and intelligence and used it. They are part of the tradition used by many writers of having onrdinary people placed into extraordinary events and seeing them rise to the occassion. Stephen King has made a nice living off of that formula.

[HerenIstarion]

I rather tend to believe that things you do because you ought to may be perceptible and often are, as well may be doable and are often done regardless (and often against best advice provided by) 'reason, maturity and intelligence'. The very journey Bilbo (Frodo's may be argued for as his being reasonable, but his 'reason' ain't of a kind we commonly describe by the name, is it?) went on was against all three of them. He was well-off, lived in a healthy environment, had some entertainment, enjoyed good reputation, what did he need all dwarven gold for to go to loose all of the enjoyments he had and risk his life for it?

Thats POLIO for heavens sake

M-mm... people may be mistaken. If you ask me to tell you the difference between laryngitis and chill, I won't be able to. Maybe they've thought it was just another and cool sounding name for the same thing called in vulgar tongue chill...

But tell me of an instance in reality where they saved the world

There was this boy they have a statue of in Belgium... or maybe Holland...somewhere around those places I'm sure... he saved a town I believe, a town I forgot the name of though

You seem to be the exact opposite of the common (and strange to yours truly seem both cases, they do) perception of children as 'different race'. Just the other side tends to 'idolize' children and you seem to... my apologies if that's not the case but you do come across that way... to, well, feel about them as inferior and yet again 'different race'. Let's say they are just as human as adults are. So if human being is capable of saving the world in principle (are we? umm...), age mustn't be an issue.

Besides, you remember my mentioning 'suspension of disbelief' up there? If the inner rules of a book require it to be a child to be doing the saving, so be it - accept that as a given 'reality' and enjoy as you read along. Or don't read - I tend to abandon books/films midway I find myself incapable of believing in.

But lest I loose sight of our topic, let's go back to the Hobbit movie. It's a story supposedly written by a hobbit, it presents hobbitish perception of events, and only events seen first hand by certain hobbit. It can't possibly incorporate every horror and thrill that might have happened or have been rumoured to have happened but in fact haven't within 2,000 miles of Bilbo's route he could not have even known about. Let's name the movie 'Of the Ring Made, Lost and Found' and film nine parts of it starting with second age and making of the rings (lots of fighting going on, and lot of empty spaces for scriptwriters to fill in, eh?... Now that would be an endevour worth a praise. I'm only half joking. There is even a way to bring Viggo and Orlando back in there - the former would play a part of Elendur son of Isildur whom Aragorn greatly resembled, the latter may be Thranduil the father of Legolas and later on Legolas himself if need be. For a romance and psychological depth - Aldarion and Erendis. For great sea scenes - fleet of Numenor. Apocaliptical scenes of it's ruin. Great battle (parts already filmed) at Barad-Dur... Isildur's death (and Viggo Mortensen for Elendur. We may even tweak it a little and make him survive, to be in a way both Elendur who fought and died and Valandil who was in Rivendell and survived). Lots of things Gandalf might have been doing to entertain himself for 2,000 years he was about worth filming too...

But let us not name it the Hobbit, than (can't add any more smilies, imagine 'smokin' smiley here)

[Sauron the White]

HerenIstarion ........... when you work behind the scenes in a four star restaurant, you soon lose the romantic perceptions of it that the customers have. The same with teaching. I taught for 33 years and loved it. I went into that work because I wanted to make a contribution with my life and always thought that kids were the hope of the future. And I still do.

Having said that, you cannot spend 33 years teaching thousands and thousands of kids without the rose colored glasses coming off and facing reality right in the face. Unless you are an idiot. I loved my job and the kids were the absolute number one best thing about it. I met lots and lots of really terrific kids from the sixth grade up through the 12th where I spent my last two decades.

I was simply making a point about movies where they have these pre-adoloscent kids save the real world from bad guys - usually adults. These are movies made to kiss the collective behinds of kids for one reason and one reason only ---- to obtain their money. Who are these films aimed at? Not thinking adults. Probably not even non-thinking adults. They are aimed at kids of that same age who want to see themselves as the saviors of the universe since they already are convinced they are the true centers of the universe. If that sounds harsh, so be it but it is true and valid.

I asked you if a kid ever saved the world. You mentioned some kid in Holland who saved his town. Fine. Pat that child on the back and give them a parade. But in movie after movie, some kid (and why is it usually a bratty, isolated, totally self-absorbed kid) manages to rise up and save the world from the bad adults. It is simply a marketing idea that is way way way off the extreme end of the Absurd-O-Meter.

I can willingly suspend my disbelief with the best of them. But not for stuff like that. That is willing suspension of disbelief times 100. One of the few times this was done well was when Speilberg did it in ET. And I think his view of kids is far more realistic and less romantic than many others.

[Nazgûl-king]

I hope they do a good job on The Hobbit film, whenever they do it. Though I hope they include Beorn! He's my favorite character from that book.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Yeah Beorn would be nice, but he's not my favourite character.

[Sauron the White]

WilliamCH - I agree with your analysis of rights, properties and usages. If you can, could you please expand on the statement you made above

Christopher Tolkien owns those rights; will never, ever sell them, and even if he did Peter Jackson and New Line would be the last people on earth he'd let near them;

I especially want to know how you came to the conclusion that Jackson and New Line would be the last people on earth that CT would be willing to work with. This is a rather strong statement and I wonder what supports it.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Without getting into specifics, let's just say that CRT's opinion of Jackson's work on his father's writing is very low. Please understand that I'm not in a position to quote or paraphrase anything he has said to me, so that will have to suffice as a basis for my assertion.


In any event it's rather academic, since the film rights to the posthumous publications are not for sale.