The Route of the Ring

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

I think the High Pass was rejected for a few reasons. First, to have taken that Pass would have placed the Fellowship far to the north in Wilderland. We know very little about what the lands are like between the Misty Mountains and Anduin. These lands may have been difficult to traverse. This makes a southern passage more desirable. Second, it is the obvious route to pass into the eastern lands and, as a result, should have been avoided. Third, the Fellowship's great need was secrecy. Seeking out the help of the Beornings would created an additional group of people who knew that they had passed through even if their errand was not revealed.

The Gladden Pass may have been difficult and could lead into the swampy lands at Gladden Fields. Yet, the description of the scouting party's route is east through the Gladden Pass, south through Wilderland, back west through the Redhorn Pass and then north back to Rivendell. This circuitous route took only a bit over a month for the scouts. It can't have been that difficult a passage and would have placed the Fellowship far closer to Lorien than the High Pass would.

One certain idea appeared in my mind, do you think that maybe some of these "alternative routes" will be useable if the Fellowship could have obtained the help of Radagast the Brown? That passage reads:

...and some of these had crossed the Mountains and entered Mirkwood, while others had climbed the pass at the source of the Gladden River, and had come down into Wilderland and over the Gladden Fields and so at length had reached the old home of Radagast at Rhosgobel. Radagast was not there; and they had returned over the high pass that was called the Dimrill Stair.

"Radagast was not there" - what if he WAS there? After all, he was willing to help Gandalf and Saruman (when he still thought them both allies) and Gandalf knew that "it would have been useless in any case to try and win over the honest Radagast to treachery", ergo, he would trust him - at least enough to f.ex. lead the Fellowship through the wilderness, where, after all, he was the best guide. Besides all the "Radagast the Fool" things, he was still a Wizard and especially here could be of help, at least, let's say, to bring the Fellowship to Lórien from the Gladden Pass if he was informed to wait for them there or something like that. (Of course, it was probably very dangerous for the Fellowship to tarry in the places too near to Dol Guldur, but still, as it was said before, could be better than Moria).

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

So the delay in entering Moria, together with a fair bit of procrastination (about routes, to look at the Book of Mazarbul etc) during that journey point towards a reluctant Gandalf to me, towards a wizard who has an inkling of his fate.

If his return was 'reward' then this would also depend upon his not thinking that - or else would it be much of a reward for bravery?

So, let me get this straight: you suggest that Gandalf could have known (or, had some vague idea) what's going to happen to him? That he's gonna die? I don't know if this was discussed before, but it would maybe be enough for a stand-alone thread.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

So, let me get this straight: you suggest that Gandalf could have known (or, had some vague idea) what's going to happen to him? That he's gonna die? I don't know if this was discussed before, but it would maybe be enough for a stand-alone thread.

I think at most he may have had some kind of foreshadowing that he may meet his fate against an enemy like the Balrog, though he may not have known who or what he faced (he may have thought he may have to face Sauron for example).

What I do think is that Gandalf knew full well what lived in Moria and that he had a good feeling that if he passed that way he would have to face this foe. This is why, in my opinion, he was procrastinating both before and during the journey through the mines.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I think at most he may have had some kind of foreshadowing that he may meet his fate against an enemy like the Balrog, though he may not have known who or what he faced (he may have thought he may have to face Sauron for example).

What I do think is that Gandalf knew full well what lived in Moria and that he had a good feeling that if he passed that way he would have to face this foe. This is why, in my opinion, he was procrastinating both before and during the journey through the mines.

I agree with the first paragraph you wrote, but not with the second. Mainly because of the fact that Gandalf seems that he did not know what to expect in Moria, judging by these words:

"A Balrog," muttered Gandalf. "Now I understand." He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. "What an evil fortune! And I am already weary."

To me, it looks like he was saying: "Oh yeah, so this is it!" or maybe even "Oh no, old Bob, why him? He was terrible even back then before Eä!"
And before he says:

Then something came into the chamber - I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell. What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge.

This implies that both Gandalf and the Balrog were surprised, and it looks like from that very moment Gandalf was fully aware of the fact that "something" that is totally outside his experience is upon them. Though Gandalf even pondered the fact that the creature could have been buried along with Balin's tomb when the room collapsed.

So, my conclusion is that Gandalf knew about some danger, and that he even had a feeling - though not fully conscious - that something terrible awaits him in Moria. But at least until that moment quoted above he was not aware what exactly, and definitely did not think of Balrog (and according to how he acts, I believe he did not think about it at all).

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

What I do think is that Gandalf knew full well what lived in Moria and that he had a good feeling that if he passed that way he would have to face this foe. This is why, in my opinion, he was procrastinating both before and during the journey through the mines.

I agree with Legate. With him were not only hobbits that he loved, future rulers of the kindreds of Men, Elves and Dwarves, and the hoped-for king of Gondor - but also the One Ring that had to be destroyed, not lost or handed over to some other evil power. I see no reason why he would have led them on a collision course with the balrog, as any other route would have been better than this rather suicidal one. Furthermore, if he knew beforehand what was in Moria, he would have most likely did his best to make this knowledge as public as possible - as there was no confidentiality agreement between him and Sauron & co, quite the contrary, according to his mission.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Agree with the preceding- and would add that while Durin's Bane was some sort of subterranean nasty, there was no reason for the Wise to leap to the conclusion it was a Balrog. Moria is a place where "nameless things" gnaw the earth. Tolkien was careful to suggest that there was far more wonder and terror in Middle-earth than he put in his books, and it can't all be neatly pigonhoiled.

[CSteefel]

The Wise certainly knew there was some "problem" in Moria, as did the Dwarves. I don't recall if there were any survivors when Durin VI was slain by a Balrog in 1980 of the 3rd Age, but they refer to threat simply as "Durin's Bane", rather than mentioning a Balrog specifically. And in the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, Dain Ironfoot ventured inside the Gates of Moria after slaying Azog, it was said that:

Yet hardy and full of wrath as he was, it is said that when he came down from the Gate he looked grey in the face, as one who has felt great fear.

And then,

But we will not enter Khazad-dum. You will not enter Khazad-dum. Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.

Presumably this is the sort of information that led Aragorn to counsel against entering Moria with the Fellowship of the Ring, even specifically referring to the threat to Gandalf:

It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!

But it also seems clear enough that nobody knew it was a Balrog, as the quotes in the posts above indicate.

[The Might]

I think this discussion is quite interesting, but not on topic, so maybe we should start a new thread for the Moria problem.
The real question is why was the High Pass so easily eliminated as an option.
Moria clearly was more dangerous and same goes for the Gap of Rohan probably. But was it better then Caradhras or not?
I personally say it was, because of the already mentioned groups and persons that would have certainly helped the Fellowship.

[CSteefel]

Interesting question. I always assumed that the High Pass was much farther north than they wanted to go, especially since they wanted to pass through Lorien (either Caradhras or Moria would get them this). But also, it seems that whatever the searches turned up, the raiding party of Orcs that freed Gollum may have influenced the thinking as well, since it was clear that the Enemy was moving almost at will in this general region. Perhaps a route down on the west side of the river, however, would have given better results...