Werewolf, why to play or not to play?

[Rikae]

Well, I don't think the problem could be worded as simply as "taking things too seriously", but I also wouldn't say that it's a problem of "not serious enough" per se.
It seems to me that, over the past year, our little band of players has lost its sense of fun. The gameplay has become too formulaic; on day one, the stock topics are trotted out and discussed in the accepted ways, day 2, the same old analysis, same arguments, and really, the same roles are reenacted again and again.
By 'roles' here, I mean something other than roleplay or hidden roles; I mean the in-game persona and strategy adopted by each player. Instead of real thought and individual analysis, players respond to each other in standardized ways, almost like filling in a form. There is always the wacky 'lightning rod' killed on day one; the myriad "quiet ones", the 'list' analyses, etc.
Even the explanations for suspicion seem chosen from a multiple-choice list. "Well, we need to get rid of the quiet ones.", "Too confusing", "Trying to appear helpful while saying nothing", "flip-flopping". However often these stereotyped methods fail to catch a wolf, they're still trotted out every time; and those who deviate too far from the average-of-all-posts are automatically lynched instead of being looked at carefully.
All this has the effect of creating overcautious, homogeneous playing styles and ever more boring games. While I'm not suggesting everyone play as oddly as I did in Lommy's game, I think that the lack of thought which causes us to vote for easy targets and make easy posts (or no posts at all), is sapping all the enjoyment and interest out of the game.

[Boromir88]

First let me applaud you Nogrod for starting this thread. When there's a problem, I like the whole 'cut the crap...how do we fix it?' attitude.

For me, time has certainly become a problem. Monday thru Thursday is work for 10 hours, and Friday thru Sunday it always seems like I'm doing something, and when I am not doing 'work,' I just want to relax and unwind. So, when a new game starts the first thing I have to ask is...ok am I going to have the time?

But, I will say it's not all about 'time' either, I know I've told several people I really have lost a lot of interest in the game. It used to be that I loved the social interaction, I loved the gaming...and in many ways I still do (I love to play Mob - which is exactly the same only instead of catching WW's you have to find mobsters).

At least, for my part, I agree with Rikae as I don't think WW becoming 'too serious,' or 'not serious enough' is the best way to describe why I've lost a lot of interest. It's kind of hard to explain as I've always liked that 'serious edge' as well as knowing 'it's just a fun game to play.' The seriousness, the competition, intensity, passionate arguments all added to the reasons I loved doing it. But in the end, it was a fun game, something to relax and enjoy. Now it seems, as Rikae said, too 'formulaic' or as I see it...too much like 'work.' The social interaction, and the game itself used to be something that could unwind me from all the work...but it has simply become just more 'work.'

I haven't even been keeping up with the games recently and it's due to the reasons I've said above. So, I really don't know what's been going on recently (just that it's been hard to get people to play). But I will say there definitely was an issue with some of the 'post game talks.' (Which prompted SpM to create this thread...definitely something that I agreed needed to be done at that time).

I sure hope that still isn't a problem, but if it is, this is all I'll say. I know there are certain 'downers who will disagree with the statement that there are some 'smart football [American football as a note] players' out there. But, one player, was asked about how his team has been 'lucky' in winning some of their games. He said, in response, that everything happens for a reason. These are all professional athletes that know how to play the game. Whether the defensive line creates pressure on the quaterback, forcing a bad throw, or they 'get inside the opposing team's head' there's always something that causes X to happen.

I think of WW the same way. Most of us have played this game a lot, as for new members on the downs, I know several of them have played WW or a similar game elsewhere. In a way we are all 'professionals,' we all know how to play this game. No one caused the 'team' (either innocent or werewolf) to lose, it's just whatever team won played that much better. It may sound arrogant of me, but when I lose, I know it's not something I did wrong, I simply got outplayed...or maybe you could say I got 'played like a fiddle.' :P

"You did that much better. You 'out did' me. Congradulations, you just wait until next game, let's see if I can get you back." Friendly competition, that always was a great spark to play. There was a time friendly competition turned into a 'blame game.' Like I said, I haven't checked in to recent games to know if that's still an issue. I just know it was at one time and was a reason as to why I've stopped.

[the phantom]

I've been too busy to play. Simple as that.

To properly do a game of Werewolf I need time to read things more than once, time to write multiple posts, and most importantly- time to think about everyone and everything.

Every day!

At this time I have only one day a week where that is remotely possible.

I see many of the people who were used to be the active and brilliant WW-players who have not been seen too much around in other threads of late either

You know, I think the fact that there is less participation from some old-school folks just increases the trend. Whether or not there exists relational history and familiarity with village members already signed up can be what tips the scales for someone joining a village.

I would certainly consider it, anyway. If I see a village stocked with people that I've played with before, that gets my interest up.

[Diamond18]

To properly do a game of Werewolf I need time to read things more than once, time to write multiple posts, and most importantly- time to think about everyone and everything.

Every day!

Ditto.

And I haven't had that sort of online time in over a year. I do often miss the fun social interaction of WW -- I still keep in touch with many friends met on the 'Downs Werewolfing but sometimes regret that I'm not meeting any of the newer Downers anymore or interacting with the old friends I'm not seeing elsewhere on the 'net. But ah well. Life got in the way, and now when I am able to be online I have more stuff to do than just play WW. WW would consume all my online time if I tried to play it properly. I absolutely hate having to play in a rush, or on stolen bits of time, skimming posts and making hasty desicions.

Also, the last time I played, I got to be a wolf for the first time, and won, so it just felt like the proper bang to retire on.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

You know, I think the fact that there is less participation from some old-school folks just increases the trend. Whether or not there exists relational history and familiarity with village members already signed up can be what tips the scales for someone joining a village.

I would certainly consider it, anyway. If I see a village stocked with people that I've played with before, that gets my interest up.

Ditto, admittedly.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right, I'll be also one to pop in on account of the "freshmen". This means that I cannot judge the game in the more "global" view as most of you "old school" players do, but maybe I can say at least something.

First, my WWing career is something around seven or so games, including one modded by myself, and one thing I can say is that I definitely haven't witnessed any of these issues that someone has taken something personally. I don't know, maybe I just did not notice, but as far as I remember, for the last year, everything went smooth and no big issues where the players would have been offended did occur. (And one could ask, why should they? I daresay that I know most of you Downers at least to the point to know that you are not little children who can't stand being beaten in chess, or cannot discern in-game attacks from real ones.)

I'd guess, and what others post on this thread supports this opinion, that most of the lack of interest in WW depends on people being busy. However, a curious query: does not this also have something to do with the fact that WW is just "switching generations"? You know, I am not going to wonder if a WW veteran after his 3,456th game says "and I've had enough, I am not playing anymore" (there are, of course, people like Mr. Noggins, who seem to be playing infinitely. But that's a special case ). It's just natural, people come and go, and this can be applied on the Downs as a whole. But normally this "generation exchange" should be sort of a fluent, ongoing process, that seems natural. Older players start to visit the game less frequently, then they cease playing at all. And on the other hand, the new players start to appear more frequently, and in the end they become regular players. Technically speaking, no one should notice the change - or at least, no one should notice the change in numbers. But when you look for example on the list of Gil's last game, there is definitely something strange - not only the number of players is really small, but almost all of the players are just (relative) newbies.

Where I wanted to get with this. I was just wondering if - and that's just an idea, and not meant to be negative (and not aimed against anyone), but a subject to think of - if there is not sort of an "old-school-werewolf-stagnation". If the older players are not being - how to say that -"conservative", that's the word. I mean like one says to himself "and now we preserve our nice little village, where there is Noggins, Boro, Morm, Fea, Phantom, whoever..." and when suddenly one or two or three of them start to participate less, one says: "Well, but Morm, Fea etc. are not playing anymore, what do I have in common with these newbie folks, let's leave," even though the person would actually like to play, but there is the barrier, or unwillingness to accept the new situation, unwillingness to play with unknown players. Of course such a thought would be illogical: when this player came in the first place, he/she also did not know all these he/she now considers as "classic players", and they got acquainted exactly this way - by playing a few games together. But when such a player leaves, there is no way he could build up similar relationships with the new ones. And so, even if he returns some time later in the future, he realizes that he really does not have anything in common with the new players, because they developed their own playing style, and he leaves saying "they are playing something totally different, this says nothing to me". Also because of this I believe there should be a continuity, not a gap between the "old" and "new" WW players.

I am not saying that it's like that - what I'm saying here is just a query or a "probe", if anyone does not think the same. In second place, I believe mentioning such a thing could serve as "warning for further generations", which I think could be borne in mind for all WWers, even for the current and even for the upcoming players. What inspired me partially were phantom's words about his interest rising when there are some players he knows in the game. This is clear, of course everyone wants to play with his friends and remember good old times. But what if some people just take this to the extreme and want the "old times" to remain forever? That would be stagnation and it simply does not work like that - times are changing, people are changing and nothing can stop it. WW can be fun no matter with whom we are playing - because as it was said here, it's also about social interaction; so the fact that there are not the players I know should not play any role in our choice whether we want to join a game or not.

[The Might]

Well, as a real newb to the game, I doubt I can contribute much to the whole discussion, but I actually have begun to grow fond of the game. It's a quite interesting concept and I guess it is quite fun to play, though I must admit I find many posts quite boring.
I definitely must agree with Rikae, I mean, I've only played it for a day and I already realised she's right. Doing something rather innovative and I must say fun such as voting oneself or being too confusing is already taken as a sign of being a bad guy.
Anyways, guess maybe a bit less analysis and a bit more wackiness might give the whle thread a less tense appearence where all are analysing what is going on.
As for lder members, I doubt that it had something to do with WW for many of them, but rather with the whle Downs, RL problems can at times hinder you from posting.

[Volo]

If I understood Legate, I find his thoughts logical, but to some extent I don't agree. In my opinion the Junior games should be brought back! There should be different level games, whether they're for the old school and the younger generation or for the classical format players and the experimental players.

I have found it rather hard to play with players of a "different age group" as one automaticly assumes that your style is know. At least me, to a large extend. But at the same time I think that assuming so is annoying, when I myself don't know the style.
Example:
Imagine a new player seeing me vote myself and then ignoring that as just my style.
Or then imagine me not voting for myself like I usually do and then lynching me for acting strange.

I'm not saying that games should be strictly limited only to such and such players, just that the level of the games should be varied!

I doubt that I would have come to WW if not for the Junior games, but after that I did try joining a "real game".
Or then, like I already said, games could be divided into clear "classical games" with only the very basic roles and to "experimental games" with Mediums, Lynch-Seers and what nuts.
I myself prefer experimental games by far, but many players don't.

We could try putting the mod-list into an order where every other game will be of a different format.


Another thing that I lack is the after-game discussion. I like going through one game and talking about it, before joining the next one. Breaks from WW are essential.