Eowyn vs. Aragorn

[Sir Kohran]

Frodo defeated Sauron

Hardly. The only people in Middle-Earth who can claim to have done that are Elendil and Gil-Galad (or Isildur, depending on the version). All Frodo did was do something that led to Sauron's defeat.

If it was Sauron in one corner of the ring (pun intended) and Frodo opposite him, somehow I would doubt whether Frodo could 'defeat' him

[Quempel]

Doesn't defeat mean to destroy, to nullify? Doesn't seem to me that Sauron was either, he was simply set back a step, not defeated. Not until Frodo threw in the ring was Sauron destroyed and nullified. Had Gil-galad, ect. actually defeated him, there would be no need for any of the Fellowship, none whatsoever. No need for Aragorn to be raised in Rivendale. No need for the Fellowship. No need for Helms Deep, no need for Pel Fields, no need for any of it whatsoever. Had he been defeated, none of it would have happened.

Elendil, Gil-Galad and Isildur failed to defeat Sauron. Had they succeeded, that battle would have been the last battle in ME and there would be no need of any of the rest of the story, that battle would have won the war. They won one battle, that's it. They did not win the war.

It was Frodo that ended the war. It was his small insignificant non-warrior like actions that ended the war. One would think that is what Tolkien was actually trying to convey, that even the smallest person can change the world, since that is what he repeatedly wrote about.

And if you want to argue real world non-military people changing the world, the two biggest influences in the world were not warriors of any sort. Those two people being Jesus and Muhammad. Jesus so influenced the world that the superpower warrior world of Rome changed religions and influenced much of the way we now live in the west, and he never once raised a sword to battle. The world has been so influenced by these two men that we elect our leaders because they will either not let gays marry or they will get the infidels. Neither were warriors.

And neither was Frodo, yet he did more for ME than Aragorn ever could. Aragorn did not have the spirit, purity or ability to destroy the ring, it wasn't in him, and all the warrior training in the world could not give him that, because it was not something he could ever attain, it was a true nobility that he could vaguely feel in himself. He recognized it in Frodo and thus wanted to help him. Eowyn possesed some of this nobility and Aragorn recognized this too, he wasn't playing cat and mouse with her, he realized she was willing to lay down her life and fight for what she believed in, and he honored that and he also realized a person willing to lay down their life for their family and beliefs can and often do defeat the military.

[Folwren]

Good post, Quempel...however...Frodo, in the end, failed, too. He did not throw the ring into the fire. I do not suggest that he did not do an extremely great deed and completed an amazing quest almost to the end, but he did not do what he had set out to do.

I wouldn't compare Frodo and Aragorn. Their paths were different and their rolls non-comparable, to my mind.

Besides, we're talking about the movies here. In the movie, Frodo practically is on the exact same level as Aragorn and they are almost comparable. We should have this discussion in the book threads.

-- Folwren

[Sauron the White]

The last few points, in my humble opinion, totally miss the point of this thread. The point was about the fighting skills of Eowyn vs. Aragorn. We are talking about individual fighting skill. We were not considering the employment of the equal of an atomic weapon (aka - The Ring) in Middle-earth. Aragorn stood alone in his fighting skill. Period.

Cross posted with Folwren who brings up an excellent point about Frodo and the ring. Spot on.

[Quempel]

Aragorn is not alone in his fighting skill. There are several Elf Lords that could best him in a heart beat. He learned his fighting skills from Elrond and sons...do you not think any of the three could best him if they wanted to?

By pure physical strength he could have bested Eowyn. But he also realized she would keep fighting. And any good warrior knows that someone who is willing to die for their beliefs is the worst enemy to come up against, because they will continue to fight until they are dead.

And yes so Frodo didn't toss the ring in, it was Gollum. So I suppose technically Gollum is the real hero.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Folwren

I do not suggest that he did not do an extremely great deed and completed an amazing quest almost to the end, but he did not do what he had set out to do.

Poor Frodo... misjudged every so often

Originally Posted by Letter #246

His real contract was only to do what he could, to try to find a way, and to go as far on the road as his strength of mind and body allowed. He did that.

Meanwhile, Gollum:

Originally Posted by Quempel

So I suppose technically Gollum is the real hero.

Originally Posted by Letter #181

Gollum was pitiable, but he ended in persistent wickedness, and the fact that this worked good was no credit to him.

[Sauron the White]

from Quempel

Aragorn is not alone in his fighting skill. There are several Elf Lords that could best him in a heart beat. He learned his fighting skills from Elrond and sons...do you not think any of the three could best him if they wanted to?

Good point and I cannot argue with it. I was limiting my praise of Aragorns warrior prowess to the world of Men. I was not including other races of the Free Peoples in awarding Argorn the Middle-earth Heavyweight Championship .

By pure physical strength he could have bested Eowyn. But he also realized she would keep fighting. And any good warrior knows that someone who is willing to die for their beliefs is the worst enemy to come up against, because they will continue to fight until they are dead.

How do you know that Aragorn realized this claim of yours concerning Eowyn? Maybe she would have such resolve but I hardly see Aragorn as a quitter either. So where is the advantage there? In comic books and (to borrow a phrase from davem) "thud and blunder" novels they do fight until every last limb has been hacked off. However, I hardly see that as even the reality of the world of LOTR.

How long do you think it would have taken Aragorn to knock the sword from the arm of Eowyn if he applied all his skills and strength? I think it would have happened rather quickly despite all of her so called determination and beliefs.

[Quempel]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

How long do you think it would have taken Aragorn to knock the sword from the arm of Eowyn if he applied all his skills and strength? I think it would have happened rather quickly despite all of her so called determination and beliefs.

Well he was 80.

And even if he had taken the sword she would have kept fighting. This is something that happens all the time. Example both the Viet Nam and Iraq war. When people or person is willing to step up and fight for their way of life, family and beliefs they do not stop. It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the fight in the dog and all that.

Why do I think he realized this, because of her saying It needs but one foe to breed a war, not two, Master Warden, and those who have not swords can still die upon them.

Plus Aragorn also said this to Eowyn 'Yet the deeds will not be less valiant because they are unpraised' He was talking about her and to her about her valor and willingness to fight.

They both understood that even though Aragorn was the stronger more trained warrior, that Eowyn had an unstopable spirit. And we must remember, if we are talking about the movie here, Aragorn was not nearly as invested in Gondor as Eowyn was in Rohan at the point of this scene. He was still a reluctant king, where as she was completely invested in Rohan, so much so that Theoden said It shall be so. Let the heralds announce to the folk that the Lady Éowyn will lead them!

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Poor Frodo... misjudged every so often

Oh, I do not misjudge Frodo. He is my second favorite character (seconded only to Sam). He is an incredible, wonderful, strong hobbit who's character is no simple thing to realize at one glance.

And, no, I don't think Gollum is the true hero.

And Aragorn is not the best fighter ever. I never suggested such a thing. However, having said that, I will add that his experience and his capabilities are (were) nothing to sneeze at.

I think that that part in the movie was badly done, misrepresenting Aragorn in an attempt to represent Eowyn as something she wasn't quite. I have nothing to pick with the protrayal of Eowyn in the movies. I think they did a good job. However, in the LotR world, I don't think that a woman should be allowed to 'kick butt', as it's sometimes put - particularly Aragorn's.

With all due respect,

Folwren

[Folwren]

What I mean to say is - it was made to look as though Eowyn (for however little time and regardless of whether or not in the end Aragorn would have eventually beaten her in a fight) had the better of Aragorn. And it should not have been so.