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Old 12-07-2007, 12:33 PM   #1
Legate of Amon Lanc
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Interesting thread, elempi. Let me first add one more example from Tolkien that immediately appeared in my mind when I read your first post. It is from the UT, when the Rohirrim guard the Fords of Isen. The situation is somewhat different there, but nevertheless there is probably a reason why I have thought of it.
Briefly about the situation: Saruman's armies were marching to Rohan (and towards Helm's Deep) and the Rohirrim were holding the Fords of Isen. But, after the first battle, Théodred was slain and the Rohirrim were weakened. Other is said in the quote I will provide. Now there were two leaders present, Elfhelm and Grimbold.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UT, The Battles of the Fords of Isen
Elfhelm held that the Fords were no longer important (...) since Saruman could clearly send forces down either side of the Isen as suited his purpose and his immediate purpose would undoubtedly be to overrun Westfold and invest the Hornburg (...) Grimbold on the other hand was not willing to abandon the Fords. This was in part due to the tradition of Westfold in which he and Erkenbrand had been bred; but was not without some reason. "We do not know," he said, "what force Saruman has still at his command. (...) As soon as he guesses or discovers how we have disposed our defence, he will certainly send great strength at all speed down the road from Isengard, and crossing the undefended Fords come in our rear, if we are all gathered northwards.”
I would say the image of Maldon could have had some influence on this story. Especially Grimbold's stance and the way it's put I could see as negation of the "beorhtnothic stance" (from certain point of view). Especially the way it's put: was not willing to abandon the Fords - due to tradition - but not without reason. Gandalf also does not flee from the Balrog.

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlemanpoet View Post
Anyway, it seems to me that Gandalf had a few options. He could flee or stand and fight. The Balrog was out of the others' league, so gamely heroism was not an option; also it was outside of the character of Gandalf to go for the chivalric ideal and give the Balrog "a fighting chance". What might have happened if he had fled instead?
That's a thing I always thought of, since it's not clear enough what would have happened had he fled with the others. In the movies, this is taken to the extreme, because the whole scene looks like total nonsense. The way it is portrayed, there is obviously no need for Gandalf to wait for the balrog. He could flee with the others and adios. Would the balrog go outside and pursue the Fellowship? Somehow I doubt it.
I'd say the main thing we lack is the knowledge of the Balrog's speed. Though if he is as fast as the balrogs in the First Age, he could be very fast.
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Old 12-07-2007, 05:35 PM   #2
William Cloud Hicklin
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Yes, their speed was 'winged.' Just not their bodies. <ducks>

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Old 12-07-2007, 05:36 PM   #3
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Theoden's pity for Grima, which results in Saruman's forces breaching Helm's Deep.
I'm not sure I follow this at all.
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Old 12-07-2007, 10:41 PM   #4
littlemanpoet
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Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli View Post
I'm not sure I follow this at all.
The battle of Helm's Deep is a direct result of Grima having borne word to Saruman of The Mark being revivified by Gandalf; except that Grima doesn't arrive at Isengard until after Saruman has send out his army and been captured by the Ents, so it is mistaken.

I see similarities, Legate, but the differences outweigh them: both leaders are thinking in terms of strategy rather than chivalric honor.
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Old 12-08-2007, 10:33 AM   #5
William Cloud Hicklin
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The battle of Helm's Deep is a direct result of Grima having borne word to Saruman of The Mark being revivified by Gandalf; except that Grima doesn't arrive at Isengard until after Saruman has send out his army and been captured by the Ents
Those are two contradictory statements: as indeed you say, Grima didn't reach Isengard until afterwards.

In the Battles of the Fords of Isen Tolkien gives a strategic overview of this period, and it's plain that the invasion of Rohan was long-planned. Saruman 'erred' in not launching it immediately upon Theodred's death in the First Battle; but his forces had taken heavier casualties than expected, and Grimbold's and Elfhelm's Riders were still in good order. At any rate the principal goal of the first attack was to kill Theodred. In the event, of course, the Second Battle occurred on the same day as Theoden's healing, so Grima could have had nothing to do with launching the invasion.

NB: Tolkien's time-synching slipped here. In the narrative, the Ent-borne Merry and Pippin reach Isengard in time to watch Saruman's army march out; but in Appendix B they arrive at night on the same day the Second Battle had already been fought!
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