The Ultimate Discourse About Gildor

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galin

Right, I agree that's what it means. I mean the whole name is Sindarin, and the point I was making is that the explanation above is in a Quenya context. In other words, is -ion also a genitive in Sindarin?

No, Sindarin doesn't have genitive endings– it uses word-order and prepositions instead. Theoretically, "Inglorion" could just be a descriptive name or title, c.f. "Thalion"– except that as far as I'm aware it doesn't mean anything.

(I think "Inglor" is in fact meant to be a Sindarin adaption of a Quenya name.)

So I guess we're still left with Inglorion = "son or descendant of Inglor". Perhaps it's meant in a non-literal way?

By the way, "Eldarion" is definitely Quenya.

[Galin]

Etymologies aside, I think Inglor (Q. Ingalaure) means *Gold of the Ingar or (long version) 'the one with golden hair like that of the Ingar'. The Ingar being the folk of Ingwe, 'The Foremost' (Vinyar Tengwar 34)

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Edit: 'Gold of the Ingar' is based on texts in Morgoth's Ring however, as distinct from a look at Inglor at the time JRRT wrote the chapter where Gildor appears. On the name change, from the 'new' texts in Parma Eldalamberon 17:

'Certainly Finrod must become name of Felagund instead of Inglor, NOT of his father since 'Finrod' never left Valinor and could not have a 'Sindarized' name.' JRRT

JRRT then notes that the names of Finwe's sons were Kurufinwe, Nolofinwe and (Sara-,) Arafinwe -- adding that the mother-name of Arafinwe was Ingalaure (because his hair was golden, even more golden than the Vanyar). It is further noted that as originally written the mother-names of Arafinwe were 'Laurin or Ingalaur' the latter changed to Ingwelaure -- altered to Ingalaure. For an earlier reference to Inglor in Etymologies see root ID- *ídí 'heart, desire, wish' and etc.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Ceratinly in 1938 there was no problem with a Noldo having a Noldorin name!

I do note that the feminine patronymic -iel (Q. -ielle) came to have a general and very common meaning 'maiden'

I also could swear, but I can't find it, that in early drafts of the Lorien material Legolas is referred to as go-Thranduil. Of course, at the time both Leggy and the Galadhrim were conceived as being Ilkorins, so that doesn't help a lot.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Ceratinly in 1938 there was no problem with a Noldo having a Noldorin name!

Not in 1938, no

I can't seem to find 'go-Thranduil' in the one volume index to The History of Middle-Earth anyway -- 'go-Thingol' isn't noted there but that appears in an Etymologies entry. Go-Feanor and go-Maidros are noted in the index (hailing from HME I) for examples. Maybe it was missed? It seems you have checked the text already however (I didn't check the text myself).

[Gwathagor]

I don't find Gildor problematic, personally, since the elves as a whole play a minor role in the War of the Ring and even, more specifically, in the story (LotR) itself. Legolas accomplishes the least of all the members of the Company. Elven-folk as a whole, with their power and significance fading, are relegated to the role of counselor-along-the-way, rather than warrior and day-saver.

[alatar]

It's funny that this thread is prominent now as, last eve, I just finished reading (rereading) that part of FotR. And in this reading, it did strike me as odd that Gildor does little to aid Frodo, or at least it seems that way. What does (or could have) Gildor and his wandering company do to help the Ringbearer?

• They provide safe lodging the night that they all meet. Remember that one of the Nazgul was hot on Frodo's path when the elves showed up. If Frodo, Sam and Frodo did not travel and stay with the elves that night, just what would have happened?

• The elves provide sustenance - food and drink - that aid not only the Hobbits' physical bodies but also their spirits. After a draught of the liquid placed in the waterbags, the Hobbits are ready for an army of Black Riders. Was this the courage that Frodo sought?

• The next day, the Hobbits are hunted by but not captured by the Black Riders. Was this due to some help by Gildor? Farmer Maggot's dogs may have had some unseen help, and who knows what kept the Black Rider from finding the Hobbits until they were safely across the Brandywine?

On the other hand, Gildor and company seem a little to unhelpful, in retrospect. It works when you don't know what the Black Riders are, but after you realize that these are the Nine, you'd think that Gildor could have done more overtly.

But I'm no elf - even if I say both yea and nay.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Ok, at http://sindanorie.lima-city.de/RS&TI&WR.htm there's more info than my feeble linguistic ability can absorb (note at the bottom of the page). In pertinent part, we learn that

At the same time {i.e. the Gnomish Lexicon] -ion is the genitive plural of consonantal nouns, e.g. glôr 'gold' > glorion....

By the time of The Etymologies Noldorin, Ilkorin and Doriathrin are the languages of the Celtic branch. Both -on and -ion occur as agentive suffixes, as in #faron 'hunter' (SPAR-), Dúrion/durion 'a Dark-elf' (DOƷ-, DÔ-, MOR-) or else form names as Mirion 'ordinary N name of the Silevril (Silmarilli)' (MIR-), Gelion 'merry singer', also a river (GYEL-). Probably associated with this is the patronymic suffix -ion < YŌ, YON- 'son'.......

There's also Erchamion, expressly Noldorin (=Ilk Ermabuin).

But only in part. There's much, much more. Through all of Tolkien's *constant* changes of mind I think what I've learned is that Tolkien happened to like the sound of -on, -ion as an ending, and then had to explain all the different ways he used it! There is also a whole stack of geographical -ions: Eregion, Dorwinion, Dorthonion, Erydwethion, etc.