Tolkien the freemason/ Priory of Sionist/Gnostic?

[Aiwendil]

Pre-Vatican II, for a Catholic to join the Masons was to invite excommunication.

Tell that to Mozart.

Seriously, though, there's no evidence at all that Tolkien was associated with Freemasonry or interested in Gnosticism.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It was precisely because of the popularity and influence of Catholic Lodges in the 18th Century (and their links to the Enlightenment and revolution) that Church and State banned them. Reactionary governments- especially Austria's- outlawed Masonry in the wake of the French Revolution. Although encyclicals against the Masons go back as far as 1738, it was in the 1917 Code of Canon Law that the explicit penalty came into force.

Incidentally, I was mistaken. Pope Benedict has made clear that despite the 1983 liberalisation on Catholic membership in charitable societies (Elks, Kiwanis, Lions etc), the ban was *not* lifted with regard to Freemasons.

[Aiwendil]

Yes - I wasn't actually arguing, just pointing out that the strong antagonism between Freemasonry and Catholicism is a relatively recent (i.e. 20th century) phenomenon.

[Bêthberry]

Given that Freemasonry is a private organisation devoted to secrecy, arcane rituals, and hierarchical progression through steps or ranks, that does not sound like something I think Tolkien would be deeply interested in.

Secrecy, especially a sort of conspiratorial secrecy (there's lots of freemasonry themes in conspiracy fiction, going back to the 18C) is something far from the values which Tolkien espouses positively in his tales. I can't see this being attractive to him.

Serious rituals of profound meaning Tolkien participated in throughout his life, more so in his later years. I can't see him needing the sanctification of the little apron with bells.

His professional life was rife with petty progress through the ranks of the academic hierarchy. Why would he need to engage in something similar in his private life or leisure?

Male bonding and comaraderie Tolkien found through the Inklings. Why would he need another boys' club?

I can't recall either that he was much interested in the new findings of Egyptology.

Of course, I could be wrong about him on all counts. He did actively pursue the profit of American money and there's lots of freemason symbols on it. (Most of the signees of the Declaration of Independence were freemasons, iirc.)

[Boromir88]

He did actively pursue the profit of American money and there's lots of freemason symbols on it.~Bb

I think that would most likely be due to the american dollar being quite valuable on the "global market" back in the days. Only relatively recently in history (no expert on this but I'm pretty sure it started in the 80s) the dollar has been losing value.

[davem]

I'm quite sure Tolkien was familiar with Masonic/occult ideas & symbolism - Williams had been a member of the Golden Dawn & knew Crowley - or at least knew of him via Waite (a character in his novel 'All Hallows Eve' is clearly based on 'the Great Beast'), & Lewis was interested in such things in his younger, pre-Christian days. I can't believe such subjects didn't crop up during Inklings meetings given that Williams drew on his arcane knowledge for many of his 'spiritual thrillers'. Carpenter's 'The Inklings' is pretty good on this aspect of William's life.

Now whether Tolkien would have incorporated such ideas in his work is another question. He does distinguish between magia & goetia in one of his letters - which indicates that he didn't just lump such things into 'black magic' - he can throw around the terminology with some knowledge. Possibly he picked up bits & pieces from Inklings discussions & gave them his own unique 'spin'. None of which is to imply that he actually believed any of it.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The US dollar first started to fall in value under Nixon in the early 1970's when he decoupled it from gold and allowed it to 'float' on the international market. While it is true the dollar had up to that point been hugely overvalued (360 yen and 4 Deutschmarks), that decision coupled with other factors were a significant part of the reason for the massive inflation of the later 70s.

The dollar's fall in 1984-85 had few adverse consequences as it was an organic response to ordinary balance-of-payments issues. The plunge this year, on the other hand, stems as much as anything from seeking a natural level vis-a-vis the artificially *undervalued* Chinese currency- complicated of course by spiking oil prices, and very low interest rates which make US securities unattractive to investors. Sarbanes-Oxley hasn't helped in that latter regard. So whether severe inflation results- we'll have to wait and see.

It is however interesting that so far the housing/subprime mess has caused little damage to the broader economy because the ~2% of GDP lost there has been mostly balanced by a 1.5%/GDP increase in exports- a result of the lower dollar.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Given that Freemasonry is a private organisation devoted to secrecy, arcane rituals, and hierarchical progression through steps or ranks, that does not sound like something I think Tolkien would be deeply interested in.

Umm Bethberry, you are aware that he spent most of his life as a member of Oxford University?

More seriously, what about Opus Dei? I don't think it is a strong possibility since I am sure it would have leaked out but they do attempt to recruit the brightest asn the best in Oxford even now..