The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-29-2007, 08:57 PM   #1
Quempel
Haunting Spirit
 
Quempel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In a flower
Posts: 97
Quempel has just left Hobbiton.
Arwen did not leave because even in Valinor she would find no healing from the separation of the death of Aragorn. Her release was that of mortal death. She knew when she sacrificed everything for her love of and for Aragorn that the price would be she would out live him by several years, and that her only release of the pain of his death and being separated from him would be mortal death. I suspect she would not actually find solace in going to Valinor. It’s a pretty human condition, once someone loses someone they love, a part of them dies and sometimes death is the sweet release they are longing for, not to live forever with the memories of what was and what was lost. This happens when people loose children, many times it destroys the life that is, yet many people can’t get passed it and are waiting for death. Theoden had Eowyn and Eomer to fight for, but he was ready to go to his join his fathers because he had lost his own son. Arwen did not leave because she had nothing left but memories, and she would eventually watch all her children and grandchildren die, and going to Valinor would not change that and could not heal it. Plus she had to seed her place on the last boat to Frodo, who had a chance to heal in Valinor. Arwen’s story is a tragic love story, she knew what she was doing when she decided to chose Aragorn and what the price was choosing him. There was no boat to bear her hence, she did not want a boat to bear her hence.
__________________
Lurking behind Uncle Fester
Quempel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2007, 12:29 AM   #2
zxcvbn
Wight
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: In front of my PC
Posts: 164
zxcvbn has just left Hobbiton.
Two things:
1.Arwen was now a mortal woman. Mortals are not permitted to travel to the Undying Lands, with very few exceptions.

2.She had already given up her place on the ship to Frodo.
zxcvbn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2007, 09:01 AM   #3
Sauron the White
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 903
Sauron the White has just left Hobbiton.
Yes, Arwen gave up her spot on the ship to Frodo. But many years later Legolas built a new ship that could have accomodated her. And since exceptions were made - for even a dwarf - could not one be made for the daughter of Elrond?

The ideas that ring most true with me are the ones that she simply did not want to leave Aragorn behind even in death.
Sauron the White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2007, 04:51 PM   #4
CSteefel
Wight
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 204
CSteefel has just left Hobbiton.
I am not sure that it was clear that Gimli was going to the Undying Lands. Or if he was, then it may have been more like a Purgatory, as it was for Frodo. Even Frodo did not apparently stay there, since it is not in the power of the Valar to convey immortality on any mortal.

As for Arwen, I am not sure that she did want to remain, at least once Aragorn died. In Appendix A, as Aragorn prepares to die, it is clear that she now fully realizes the bittnerness of her mortality
Quote:
...and thus she tasted the bitterness of mortality that she had taken upon her.
and she says
Quote:
...there is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and the silence. But I say to you, King of the Numenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive.
And beyond this, she did not seem to cling willingly to her mortality, and in fact
Quote:
...Arwen went forth from the House, and the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star.
I don't read this as a case of Arwen willing so much to remain behind (at least once Aragorn died) as now realizing the full bitterness of her situation...
__________________
`These are indeed strange days,' he muttered. `Dreams and legends spring to life out of the grass.'
CSteefel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2007, 06:50 PM   #5
TheGreatElvenWarrior
Mighty Quill
 
TheGreatElvenWarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Walking off to look for America
Posts: 2,230
TheGreatElvenWarrior has been trapped in the Barrow!
I do think that Arwen needed to die, not because I didn't like her, but because Arwen would find no healing in Valinor or happiness, once Aragorn died she had no desire to live... At least when Frodo went he still had Bilbo and maybe later Sam, and he was going to die so that means he would not need to cry, yes it is sad when someone you love dies or is seen no more(I have cried many times over my cat that has died and my other cat that was sent away) but I would think that once your true love dies it is different.
__________________
The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead.
TheGreatElvenWarrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2007, 07:37 PM   #6
Lord Gothmog
Animated Skeleton
 
Lord Gothmog's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: South Wales
Posts: 49
Lord Gothmog has just left Hobbiton.
When Elrond left Middle-earth for the West, the time came for his childern to make their decisions as to which people they would have their fate joined to, Eldar or Men. The brothers Elladan and Elrohir seems to have been able to 'delay their decision' by staying for a time in Imladris with Celeborn. However, Arwen did not delay, she made her decision to join her fate with that of Men and marry Aragorn.

There are some choices that do not allow for one to recant or change. This was one of them, in making her choice to join with Man she closed the door to the West. The same decision (with the same result) was made by Elros and he was in a better position to recant his choise and travel to The Undying Lands He was almost in sight of them. This is why There is now no ship that would bear Arwen into the West. She was no longer allowed to go.

As for Gimli, we are not certain that he did go into the West as this is only what the Hobbits heard after Legolas left. However, even if he did do so, we do not know the reason why he would be allowed even as far as 'The Lonely Isle'. The only ones we know of for certain are Bilbo and Frodo, both of whom were allowed into the West to have a chance to heal in sprit before dying and leaving Arda.
__________________
If life was just a rehearsal, Would the show be Cancled.

Greetings and Felicitations from the Lord of Balrogs!
Lord Gothmog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2007, 09:50 AM   #7
Lindale
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Lindale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: midway upon... in a forest dark
Posts: 975
Lindale has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Gothmog View Post
The same decision (with the same result) was made by Elros and he was in a better position to recant his choise and travel to The Undying Lands He was almost in sight of them. .
Where was this stated Lord Gothmog? In one of the latter HoMEs, or the Letters?

Arwen chose to be mortal, and even if she did go to the West she's already mortal. And she'll die. The mortals who went to Aman, they don't lose their mortality. But they get healed, pretty way better than in ME anyway. But for a lovesick elf-turned-mortal much like Luthien was, I think no amount of beauty or bliss can heal that.
__________________
The heart does things for reasons Reason itself cannot comprehend. - Blaise Pascal

Legal Madness.
Lindale is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:45 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.