There is now no ship... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Alfirin · 01-05-2008, 07:15 PM

On a somewhat related note there are two questions which have bugged me ofr quite a while. (if the answers to both of these are covered somewhere in the canon and I missed it my apoliges for wasting everyones time.)

Firstly, how could a ship bulit by Legolas get to the Undying Lands? Access to the Undying Lands in the Third Age was restricted exclsively to ships of the Falathrim elves. Legolas was an elf but he was Sindar not Falathrim. As an elf he would be entitled to enter the Undying Lands, but a ship built by him would not seem to be able to get there.

Secondly did the Falathrim ships and crews actually act like Charon for passegers. That is to say did Falathrimm ships and crews return from the Undying Lands to the Grey Havens,sans passengers, or was each trip for a ship one way with any Falathrim crew also never coming back? and as a subnote were there always Falatrim ships available for the jounery or did weary eleves have to sometimes wait in the Grey Havens for a shipworth of elves to arrive?

Gwathagor · 01-05-2008, 10:02 PM

"The Elves who took this road and those few 'mortals' who by special grace went with them, had abandoned the 'History of the world' and could play no further part in it."

I think this is important to understanding why Arwen had to stay (and die). As a result of her decision to marry Aragorn, Arwen became inextricably bound to Middle-earth and the human race as a whole. To leave Middle-earth would involve abandoning the "history of the world" in a way that was no longer an option for her. Also, her death is part and parcel to the sacrifice she made in choosing to remain with Aragorn in Middle-earth. Had she sailed with Legolas, or even alone, it would be cheating. Her sacrifice would be incomplete.

William Cloud Hicklin · 01-06-2008, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Firstly, how could a ship bulit by Legolas get to the Undying Lands? Access to the Undying Lands in the Third Age was restricted exclsively to ships of the Falathrim elves.

Where in the world do you get this notion? Not only is it nowhere stated, but it's also a datum that (1) Legolas did it; and (2) many Nandor successfully sailed from Edhellond.

Moreover, 'Falathrim' was a meaningless term in the Third Age.

Alfirin · 01-09-2008, 05:50 PM

My apologies, I read it somewhere in the A-Z of tolkein nad must have misinterpreted the wording. That still leave the second question did Grey Haven Elves return from the Undying Lands (after dropping of those who were leaving middle earth) or was each trip one way for the crew as well (most of the leaving parties seem to be to small to entertain the possibilty that those leaving middle earth crewed their own ships, professional sailor must have been needed sometimes, or did elven ships sail themselves?)

01-05-2008, 07:15 PM	#1
Alfirin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 435	On Legola's Sailing On a somewhat related note there are two questions which have bugged me ofr quite a while. (if the answers to both of these are covered somewhere in the canon and I missed it my apoliges for wasting everyones time.) Firstly, how could a ship bulit by Legolas get to the Undying Lands? Access to the Undying Lands in the Third Age was restricted exclsively to ships of the Falathrim elves. Legolas was an elf but he was Sindar not Falathrim. As an elf he would be entitled to enter the Undying Lands, but a ship built by him would not seem to be able to get there. Secondly did the Falathrim ships and crews actually act like Charon for passegers. That is to say did Falathrimm ships and crews return from the Undying Lands to the Grey Havens,sans passengers, or was each trip for a ship one way with any Falathrim crew also never coming back? and as a subnote were there always Falatrim ships available for the jounery or did weary eleves have to sometimes wait in the Grey Havens for a shipworth of elves to arrive?

01-05-2008, 10:02 PM	#2
Gwathagor Shade with a Blade Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: A Rainy Night In Soho Posts: 2,512	"The Elves who took this road and those few 'mortals' who by special grace went with them, had abandoned the 'History of the world' and could play no further part in it." I think this is important to understanding why Arwen had to stay (and die). As a result of her decision to marry Aragorn, Arwen became inextricably bound to Middle-earth and the human race as a whole. To leave Middle-earth would involve abandoning the "history of the world" in a way that was no longer an option for her. Also, her death is part and parcel to the sacrifice she made in choosing to remain with Aragorn in Middle-earth. Had she sailed with Legolas, or even alone, it would be cheating. Her sacrifice would be incomplete. __________________ Stories and songs.

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01-09-2008, 05:50 PM	#4
Alfirin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 435	My apologies, I read it somewhere in the A-Z of tolkein nad must have misinterpreted the wording. That still leave the second question did Grey Haven Elves return from the Undying Lands (after dropping of those who were leaving middle earth) or was each trip one way for the crew as well (most of the leaving parties seem to be to small to entertain the possibilty that those leaving middle earth crewed their own ships, professional sailor must have been needed sometimes, or did elven ships sail themselves?)