Them Dwarven folk.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by zxcvbn

That's what makes discussions fun. it'd be a boring world if everybody agreed on everything.

Agreed.

Read the essay 'Of Dwarves and Men'.

I have read it, but I don't definitely know it by heart.

Whenever the two races lived close to each other Men had the role of providing food and perishables and Dwarves provided tools, weapons etc.

But the Dwarves of the Iron Hills or the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains, they didn't have human neighbours - or did they? No big organised settlements, at least.

The Dwarves may not be very friendly with the Elves but they weren't enemies either. More like neutral. Also, in the Silmarillion it says that though relations between the Dwarves and Elves remained cool, there was a lot of trade between them and both sides profited greatly.

I'm not questioning the fact, but I'd like to look at it myself. Where is that said?

And as for the Shire being too far way for trade, how do you think the Dwarves knew of pipe weed?

I did not mean to say it was too far way for trade, rather that it was too far away for significant regular food supply trade. Besides, if there would have been a considerable amount of Dwarven money and/or goods coming to the Shire this way, I think it would have been mentioned somewhere.

[zxcvbn]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

But the Dwarves of the Iron Hills or the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains, they didn't have human neighbours - or did they? No big organised settlements, at least.

How do you know? Tolkien never wrote anything about the Dwarf-mansions of the Blue Mountains and the Iron Hills other than the fact that they existed. It wouldn't be implausible to assume that there were atleast some villages of Northmen near the Iron Hills. And as for the Blue Mtns, they were living right next to the Noldor and Sindar in Lindon.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I'm not questioning the fact, but I'd like to look at it myself. Where is that said?

Here.

Ever cool was the friendship between the Naugrim and the Eldar, though much profit they had one of the other; Of the Sindar

And here.

And thus it was that Caranthir's people came upon the Dwarves, who after the onslaught of Morgoth and the coming of the Noldor had ceased their traffic into Beleriand. But though either people loved skill and were eager to learn, no great love was there between them; for the Dwarves were secret and quick to resentment, and Caranthir was haughty and scarce concealed his scorn for the unloveliness of the Naugrim, and his people followed their lord. Nevertheless since both peoples feared and hated Morgoth they made alliance, and had of it great profit; Of the Return of the Noldor

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I did not mean to say it was too far way for trade, rather that it was too far away for significant regular food supply trade.

Why not? There was a great deal of traffic passing through the old Dwarf-roads, which happened to pass through the Shire.

There he laboured long, and trafficked, and gained such wealth as he could; and his people were increased by many of the wandering Folk of Durin who heard of his dwelling in the west and came to him. Now they had fair halls in the mountains, and store of goods, and their days did not seem so hard,...The Appendices

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Besides, if there would have been a considerable amount of Dwarven money and/or goods coming to the Shire this way, I think it would have been mentioned somewhere.

The Dwarves did frequently pass through places like the Shire and Bree-land. And as some poster on this same thread said before they occasionally lent their expertise in construction and road-building.

That stage, however, belonged to the early days of the Shire,
and hobbit-building had long since been altered, improved by devices, learned from Dwarves, or discovered by themselves.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Zxcbvn

How do you know? Tolkien never wrote anything about the Dwarf-mansions of the Blue Mountains and the Iron Hills other than the fact that they existed. It wouldn't be implausible to assume that there were atleast some villages of Northmen near the Iron Hills.

No, it wouldn't be implausible, I agree, but I think you're misunderstanding me. I said "no big settlemetns, at least". That does not discount small villages.

And as for the Blue Mtns, they were living right next to the Noldor and Sindar in Lindon.

Yes - and the HoME quote only referred to Dwarves and Humans.

As to the qoutes you provided, they are indeed very familiar to me, but I think they - at least the latter one - only refer to the First Age. So they're useless when arguing about the Third Age (which we're discussing, right? ).

Why not? There was a great deal of traffic passing through the old Dwarf-roads, which happened to pass through the Shire.

I know. But it takes time to go from the Shire to the Blue Mountains, and food doesn't stay good for a long time (assuming there were no preservatives in M-E ). Of course the Dwarves could just buy flour and dried meat & fruits and other goods that last a bit longer and eat only that, but I can't see them going on such an ascetic diet.

[zxcvbn]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I know. But it takes time to go from the Shire to the Blue Mountains, and food doesn't stay good for a long time (assuming there were no preservatives in M-E ). Of course the Dwarves could just buy flour and dried meat & fruits and other goods that last a bit longer and eat only that, but I can't see them going on such an ascetic diet.

Okay...good point there.

Exactly how long would it take to transport goods from the Shire to the Blue Mtns by horse cart? Let's say a week. Grains, cereals and nuts can be stored for several months, meat can be preserved for weeks by salting and smoking(and still taste good), and fruits and vegetables can be pickled, so it's still possible. And if the Dwarves wanted fresh fruits and veggies they could buy it from the Elves, who are better at growing them than any other race.

[Aganzir]

I don't think (even food) trade with hobbits is a completely impossible thought. It just doesn't make sense that the dwarves had no way to get food without trading, which I think is what you zxcvbn are saying (or at least coming up with points that back it up).

I bet it takes more people & resources to travel quite a distance just to buy food than it takes to farming, keeping of cattle, hunting or whatever. And dwarven products would sell even without barter.

How many dwarves live in the Blue Mountains anyway? Even though dwarves were a dwindling race at the end of the Third Age, I dare to say there were still more than could be feeded with traded food only.

And how much food does a dwarf consume per day? How much does a dwarf work per day? Buying all their food would soon have made their work unprofitable.

[zxcvbn]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I don't think (even food) trade with hobbits is a completely impossible thought. It just doesn't make sense that the dwarves had no way to get food without trading, which I think is what you zxcvbn are saying (or at least coming up with points that back it up).

What I'm saying is that IMHO the Dwarves were not food producers. I suppose they hunted, gathered wild roots, caught fish and maybe cultivated mushrooms inside their mounntain halls, but I don't think they did any farming or herding if they could help it, and usually obtaiined most(not all, but most) of their food through trade.

I bet it takes more people & resources to travel quite a distance just to buy food than it takes to farming, keeping of cattle, hunting or whatever. And dwarven products would sell even without barter.

How many dwarves live in the Blue Mountains anyway? Even though dwarves were a dwindling race at the end of the Third Age, I dare to say there were still more than could be feeded with traded food only.

And how much food does a dwarf consume per day? How much does a dwarf work per day? Buying all their food would soon have made their work unprofitable.

I always thought that it was the food suppliers who were disadvantaged. Dwarven products(tools, weapons, jewellry, road-building, stone-work etc.) tend to be rather expensive. In comparision food is quite cheap. Notice that the Dwarves of Erebor were the ones who profited most from their trade with Men. None of the Northmen were anywhere near as wealthy as the Dwarves. Bard, who recieved only one-fourteenth of the treasure of Thrain, was said to still have "wealth exceeding that of many mortal(meaning human) kings".

Heh. I'm really enjoying this discussion.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by zxcvbn

but I don't think they did any farming or herding if they could help it, and usually obtaiined most(not all, but most) of their food through trade.

If they could help it, yes- but I think they rather did farming and herding than were completely dependant on outsiders.

I always thought that it was the food suppliers who were disadvantaged. Dwarven products(tools, weapons, jewellry, road-building, stone-work etc.) tend to be rather expensive. In comparision food is quite cheap.

I agree, but only in case dwarves produced some food also on their own. It requires quite much food to keep the whole society content; and if they bought most of it, they would have had to buy it from many farmers and pay each enough. I know the dwarves were good tradesmen, but we must remember all of those who ate didn't contribute to the making of trading goods.

Heh. I'm really enjoying this discussion.

I enjoy every discussion that concerns dwarves.