What was Shelob, and more importantly, what was Ungoliant?

[Gwathagor]

I'm convinced by the suggestion that Ungoliant was a sort of anti-Bombadil incarnate-darkness evil-nature-spirit-in-spider-form. She's clearly not a Maia.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

I'm convinced by the suggestion that Ungoliant was a sort of anti-Bombadil incarnate-darkness evil-nature-spirit-in-spider-form. She's clearly not a Maia.

"Spirits" are termed ealar by Tolkien. There's no need for all the mumbo-jumbo, as 1) Bombadil has nothing to do with Ungoliante, 2) there's no reason to assume that Ungoliante was incarnate. You're right that she's "clearly not a Maia," but for the sole reason that she was not in the official service of any Vala; otherwise, her nature as a "spirit"--an eala--was identical to that of the Valar and Maiar.

[Gwathagor]

I see Ungoliant as an anti-Bombadil because like Bombadil, Ungoliant appears to not be a specifically created being, but rather an embodiment of forces of nature. Only she's evil.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

I see Ungoliant as an anti-Bombadil because like Bombadil, Ungoliant appears to not be a specifically created being, but rather an embodiment of forces of nature. Only she's evil.

Why do Bombadil and Ungoliante appear not to be created? Iluvatar existed before all else and thus brought all else into being.

[Gwathagor]

As I see it, Ungoliant and Bombadil were created incidentally, as manifestations of natural forces.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

As I see it, Ungoliant and Bombadil were created incidentally, as manifestations of natural forces.

And why do you see it that way? If it's just because you like the idea, fine. If not, could you please elaborate? Is there any evidence for the theory? Anything that might preclude the possibility that these two are creatures of a more substantiated nature?

[Gwathagor]

I may choose to elaborate later, but I'm not going to waste my time arguing the point with you. Chances are your disagreement with my theory is just a difference in terms.