Lack of respect displayed by Gimli

[Meriadoc1961]

For what it's worth, I found both of these scenes disrespectful, and totally unnecessary, even though we have been told that movies are different than books.

NO ONE should have been allowed to sit on the Steward's throne, other than the rightful Steward, and NO ONE would have allowed it! Forget about Aragorn and Gandalf! There are always guards in this sort of room to ENSURE that this sort of thing never happens! Pretending that there would be no guards in a room such as that, the throne room of a race and kingdom as ancient and noble in heritage as Gondor was, is beyond belief, just as it is beyond belief that Gandalf would be allowed to BEAT WITH HIS STAFF the Lord Denethor without ANY repercussions! That is truly stupidity put on display.

This really is not as trivial as some believe. This sort of outright disrespect, the sitting on the throne and the beating of the Lord of this people, would have led to a dissolving of any fellowship between the races. I will not buy at all into any "books are books, and movies are movies" arguments. They will not work.

Merry

[Sauron the White]

from Meriadoc1961

I will not buy at all into any "books are books, and movies are movies" arguments. They will not work.

Meriadoc... perhaps you are cross reading several different threads and are rather confused about the discussion here. We are discussing the merits, or lack of merit, to the depiction of Gimli on Balins tomb and later on Denethors throne. Both are film scenes and have nothing to do with the books.

The argument that you do not like - "books are books and movies are movies" (or perhaps the reality that you do not like to recognize) has often come from me .... but not in this thread and does not apply to this discussion. I have said repeatedly that we should judge the films by what works or does not work as a film. And that is what each post in this thread has attempted to do so far. So the whole film/movie thing has nothing to do with this right now.

You are attacking a line of debate that has not been used here.

It could well apply in other threads which compare the books to the movies and then make a judgement about the two. But not this one.

Regarding your point that nobody would be allowed on the stewards throne..... since the steward has just died - rather disgracefully at that - and no new one had yet been installed, I took it that the throne room was being used as some sort of battle central with meetings and planning. The formality of the room was temporarily dispensed with due to emergency circumstances. After all, it was wartime. To stand on polite ceremony in the middle of war is asking a bit much when there is much more at stake.

[Quempel]

Originally Posted by Meriadoc1961

For what it's worth, I found both of these scenes disrespectful, and totally unnecessary, even though we have been told that movies are different than books.

NO ONE should have been allowed to sit on the Steward's throne, other than the rightful Steward, and NO ONE would have allowed it! Forget about Aragorn and Gandalf! There are always guards in this sort of room to ENSURE that this sort of thing never happens! Pretending that there would be no guards in a room such as that, the throne room of a race and kingdom as ancient and noble in heritage as Gondor was, is beyond belief, just as it is beyond belief that Gandalf would be allowed to BEAT WITH HIS STAFF the Lord Denethor without ANY repercussions! That is truly stupidity put on display.

This really is not as trivial as some believe. This sort of outright disrespect, the sitting on the throne and the beating of the Lord of this people, would have led to a dissolving of any fellowship between the races. I will not buy at all into any "books are books, and movies are movies" arguments. They will not work.

Merry

I disagree, totally. Gandalf was with the King of Gondor, not the Stewart of Gondor. And last time I checked, King out ranked Stewart. As for Aragorn, he could and would have the right to sit on, tear down, color all over, feed his dog, have his friends sit on any seat in the hall. After all he was King. And it's good to be the King.

As for the beating of Denathor...I agree it probably was way over the top and not very Tolkien like. But it sure was fun to watch.

And the guards....would you go up against Gandalf? I wouldn't, I'd be afraid he'd turn me into a toad or a moth. I don't particularly like being either.

[Boromir88]

As for Aragorn, he could and would have the right to sit on, tear down, color all over, feed his dog, have his friends sit on any seat in the hall. After all he was King. And it's good to be the King.~Quempel

Aragorn wasn't crowned King just yet, so he actually couldn't just do whatever he pleases. And the attitude of "I'm King I do what I want" never seems to historically work out for the Kings who felt that way. Even Kings have boundaries and etiquette to follow. Aragorn has enough dignity to not trash the Steward's throne. Seeing as he let's Faramir hold the office of Steward, even after becoming King, Aragorn definitely has more respect for HIS country...even if he likes beheading messengers (oops that's part of a different discussion )

We are discussing the merits, or lack of merit, to the depiction of Gimli on Balins tomb and later on Denethors throne. Both are film scenes and have nothing to do with the books.~STW

Actually the discussion has very much to do with the books. As much as one might like to try and keep the two seperate, it's impossible to do so because it is the same story. This tends to happen when you get the disclaimer at the beginning of the movies..."based off of ________"

The bottomline being Gimli is a character who gets reduced to disrespectful and at times gross humour. Standing on Balin's tomb doesn't seem to be so much so as reclining on the Steward's throne having a smoke. And just to point out what WCH already did, Faramir was the Ruling Steward at this time, so Denethor abusing his power and being dead is not a valid excuse (at least in my opinion).

[Sauron the White]

from Sauron the White

Quote:
We are discussing the merits, or lack of merit, to the depiction of Gimli on Balins tomb and later on Denethors throne. Both are film scenes and have nothing to do with the books.~STW

reply from Boromir 88

Actually the discussion has very much to do with the books. As much as one might like to try and keep the two seperate, it's impossible to do so because it is the same story. This tends to happen when you get the disclaimer at the beginning of the movies..."based off of ________"

I understand your point but I think it is important to go back to the very first post in this thread to see what the intent of the poster was. MatthewM very clearly indicated that he was talking about the way Gimli was being used in the movie. His argument is based on a misuse of Gimli within the movie. I think that is the proper and very legitimate approach in discussing the films.

The replies here, and there have been many coming at this from various angles, have concerned themselves with the world of the films - as I think is right.

Aragorn may not have yet assumed the crown in a formal ceremony but by that time in the tale, everyone knew , including all in that throne room, who Aragorn was and what his position was. Quempel had a great point in that if Aragorn wanted Gimli to sit in the chair of the vacant steward, then that certainly is okay. Who in that room was going to challenge that boon extended to Gimli by Aragorn? And I think they had far greater things on their minds than the mere courtesy extended to a chair and who it did or did not represent.

[Boromir88]

I think that is the proper and very legitimate approach in discussing the films.~Sauron

I can agree with that...for me though what I find disrespectful in a book is most likely what I will also find disrespectful in a movie. Anyway, as I said, I thought the approach to Gimli standing on Balin's tomb was a good one, and a good argument.

And I think they had far greater things on their minds than the mere courtesy extended to a chair and who it did or did not represent.

But here I will have to bring up the books, because Aragorn (even amidst a war that would decide the fate of everyone) had the courtesy and respect to not walk into Minas Tirith while there was still political turmoil. The Last Debate was held outside the walls, and despite Aragorn being urged to claim the Kingship, he denies precisely because there is a war going on and he doesn't want Gondor to be dragged further down into this political vaccuum. Yes Aragorn could have made the claim to the throne, and probably would have been accepted, but he had the respect and decency to know that Sauron was still the enemy.

[MatthewM]

Quite a few things to address. Your comments were disrespectful to me, StW, and I will post whatever topics I please concerning my grudges with the films. Hair color is a big deal to me. Get over it. Alatar said it best - to each his own.

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

MatthewM very clearly indicated that he was talking about the way Gimli was being used in the movie. His argument is based on a misuse of Gimli within the movie. I think that is the proper and very legitimate approach in discussing the films.

Do not speak for me. Apparently the subject of the thread was not "clearly indicated" to you, for Boro88 is correct. This thread, although showcasing a movie flaw, has everything to do with the books. Let me try to explain this to you.

The book was written.
Years later, the movies based off the book are filmed.

How in the world are you going to continue to preach on how movies are movies and books are books? I understand that these are two very different medias, and the films have to be treated in a certain way - but the fact remains that Peter Jackson was basing his films on J.R.R. Tolkien's beloved books.

There are some things in the films that should not have been, for they are contrary to the books.

Gimli sitting on the vacant Steward's chair is completely disrespectful.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

And just to point out what WCH already did, Faramir was the Ruling Steward at this time, so Denethor abusing his power and being dead is not a valid excuse (at least in my opinion).

Agreed.

[Sauron the White]

Matthew..... look, lets be brutally honest here. You don't like me and have a real problem with me. Months ago, you told me to leave here and your animosity has only grown since then. Now its a full blown case of anger which shows in your nearly every post that has something to do with me.

Your comments were disrespectful to me, StW, and I will post whatever topics I please concerning my grudges with the films. Hair color is a big deal to me. Get over it. Alatar said it best - to each his own.

Quote chapter and verse and I can respond in kind. Vague generalities do not lay any foundation for your claim.

I do not speak for you. My mind does not work that way. But I can look at what you wrote and state what it means to me. That is what we all do.

You are grasping at straws. You post clearly was looking to poke some holes in Jacksons movies. Period. You did not like the treatment of Gilmi on Balins tomb or on the chair of the Steward. Both of those are things YOU SAW IN THE MOVIES.

Hair color. You tell me to get over it. Your individual obsession with your idols hair color borders on being a bad joke. Your complaining about it saying its suppose to be black (again with the books) while in the movies it was brown, makes 14 year old starstruck girls sound rational.

Here is your latest example of irrational postings:

How in the world are you going to continue to preach on how movies are movies and books are books? I understand that these are two very different medias, and the films have to be treated in a certain way - but the fact remains that Peter Jackson was basing his films on J.R.R. Tolkien's beloved books.

There are some things in the films that should not have been, for they are contrary to the books.

Peter Jackson, through Saul Zaentz and New Line, had to the right to any darn thing they pleased to do with those books. And when JRR Tolkien sold those rights to UA he knew it. He said as much in his letters when he said he was opting for money over art.

Peter Jackson has no obligation to put any one scene, any one character, any certain hair color in his movies based on anything that Tolkien wrote. No obligation of any kind. He had the right to do anything he wanted with those books.

He could use what he wanted to use.

He could cut what he wanted to cut.

He could change what he wanted to change.

He could add what he wanted to add.

And it was JRRTolkien himself who gave him that right. Nobody else.

Peter Jackson cannot change one page, one paragraph, one word, on item of punctuation in LOTR. He does not have that right.

And thats because movies are one thing while books are quite another.

JRRTolkien knew that.
Peter Jackson knows that.
I know that.
Its too bad that you claim to know that but it still seeps into your reasoning like polluted water fouling a clear stream.

You want to play nice. Fine, I can play nice. You want to take off the gloves and play rough. I can do that too. Believe me young man, you have not seen anything yet.

I prefer nice and civil. But be forewarned. Think about what you want to do with this direction.

[Gwathagor]

A gentle word turns away wrath, Sauron.

[Nogrod]

What's wrong with you people?

Some respect please even if you disagree...

PS. I just realised what is it in British parlance: manners, please.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

You want to play nice. Fine, I can play nice. You want to take off the gloves and play rough. I can do that too. Believe me young man, you have not seen anything yet.

I prefer nice and civil. But be forewarned. Think about what you want to do with this direction.

Oh please...to think that testosterone can find its way through electronic pathways.

StW, you're a provocateur, short and sweet. I assume that the 'direction' above indicates that you will provide MatthewM and like diehard book fans with the 'Unified Theory of Tolkien,' like the physics Holy Grail of the Unified Theory of Gravity, would tie together the Books and the Movies in one sweeping theorem. Short of that, and the proofs that it would require, you then simply hold an opinion.

That's cool, but I wouldn't oversell it.

By the by, I'm glad that MatthewM has started this thread, as I overlooked another Jackson flaw (over five billions and counting) with the observation regarding Gimli and the Throne of Denethor II - one of over 26 Stewards to rule in the King's stead, and yet his seat is no better than a common stool. Oh, and hair colour? Forgot that one too. I figure that once I get the list to six billion, surely someone will then have the movies recalled. Until then I can only sit and scrawl...