Think about it. Please.

[Sir Kohran]

What does irritate me is the lack of respect for Tolkien himself & for Christopher which some people display - if its pointed out that Tolkien strongly disapproved of adaptations of his work, or that Christopher (having seen the films) dislikes them, this is dismissed with the flip comment that 'Well, Tolkien sold the movie rights, so ... tough!' I would venture to suggest that if Tolkien had lived long enough to see the movies & expressed approval of them, or if Christopher had publicly stated he liked them then those very people who are dismissing their opinions would have latched onto them & prefaced every positive comment about the movies with the statement 'Tolkien himself/Christopher loved these movies, which proves how accurate/authentic they are...' - the feelings of Tolkien & Christopher would not have been so summarily dismissed if they suited their arguments.

I admire Christopher's actions - he's chosen to stay neutral. He hasn't approved and he hasn't disapproved. Instead he's wisely spent his time productively on the books and I'd say the publication of COH as a stand-alone work achieved far more than if he had wasted the last few years criticising Peter Jackson.

Probably he would have felt the same about the film. And one can understand that - if an author spends 14 years writing a book, & most of his life creating a mythology of which that book is a major part, he will understandably feel miffed if someone else has the temerity to think they can 'improve' on it. And a writer may sell the film rights to his work believing that anyone choosing to make a film of it will actually want to put his story on the screen, rather than turn it into something else entirely. I know that Ursula Le Guin was furious with the makers of the Earthsea mini-series, feeling that the makers had messed it up big time & turned it into something a million miles away from her creation.

You're probably right in some way. I can guess from personal experience - a few years ago I was involved in a school play and at one point I had planned out a whole action sequence between a group of warriors on stage. When I presented it to the teacher she liked it but insisted it was replaced with a duel between the two main characters. Though that was probably the best decision to make in the long run I couldn't help but feel just a bit annoyed.

All the same I'd be interested to see his reaction - Tolkien was a very analytical man. But then I'd also like to see what Shakespeare made of the Dicaprio version of Romeo and Juliet.

[alatar]

My point from my earlier post (now that I figured out what it was) is that the movies are successful or not depending on your point of view/criteria. No one can argue that, financially, they were not successful. The awards, both technical and otherwise, show that the films were acclaimed by the peer community for certain and specific aspects. This does not, however, make them successful with me and some others who compare them to the books (our criteria).

Another point: Is there any information regarding Peter Jackson and the Bakshi films? For those who don't know, the Dune book(s) were made into movies - twice. The first version was a big production that just went too far from the books; the second a TV version that was more modest and closer to the book story. That said, the producer of the second version was constrained by the first. He did not want to repeat anything, even those things that were done well, from the first movie, and so to me could have done better but could not as he wanted to avoid the taint/stink of the first. So, this producer wasn't just trying to accommodate the books and the fans but also the first movie.

Was Peter Jackson influenced by the first LotR movie? If so, if even in a more positive way, then it's not only the books that he's dealing with, but this other version as well (as well as the BBC audio production). What I'm trying to say is that it's just not Tolkien versus Jackson, but versus Bakshi and Morgan/Leicester.

[davem]

Originally Posted by alatar

Was Peter Jackson influenced by the first LotR movie? If so, if even in a more positive way, then it's not only the books that he's dealing with, but this other version as well (as well as the BBC audio production). What I'm trying to say is that it's just not Tolkien versus Jackson, but versus Bakshi and Morgan/Leicester.

Apparently Jackson discovered Tolkien via the Bakshi movie - & one can see the influence (the scene where the four Hobbits are hiding from the Ringwraith among the tree roots is a straight lift from the Bakshi version, as is the 'Proudfoot-Proudfeet!' scene - shot from the same angle!) Bakshi has gone on record that he was not happy at not recieving any credit from Jackson.

The radio series, according to Sibley (one of the adaptors) was popular among the team making the movie (he was there working on a book about the movies) More here: http://www.ebookee.com/BBC-Radio-Lor...4b-_84924.html

Now, there were a number of cross-overs between the three versions - Bakshi movie Gollum & Boromir (Peter Woodthorpe & Michael Graham Cox ) played the same roles in the radio series, & Ian Holm moved on from playing Frodo in the radio series to Bilbo in the Jackson movie. The major 'lift' by PJ from the radio series was the final scene of Sam's return to Bag End with a voice over from Frodo - the movie scriptwriters not only took the idea but even the actual words from the radio series.

For anyone interested the series is available through You Tube http://uk.youtube.com/profile_videos...radioDrama&p=r - you'll have to go to page five & work backwards through the episodes, as they're in reverse order. This is part one, episode one : http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=imF8TnXcdhU.

Mithalwen are hoping to start up an 'Episode by Episode' thread for the series soon, so if anyone is interested & hasn't heard it yet, get listening...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I'd like to add one very memorable scene to what davem posted: the Ringwraiths stabbing the bolsters in the Prancing Pony. As I remember the Bakshi movie from the theatres (many years ago by now! - I don't have them available for rewatching), the same cutting back and forth from the dark room with the Nazgul to the sleeping hobbits makes the scene very suspenseful!

[davem]

Bit from Bakshi here http://www.angelfire.com/film/rings/...ws/bakshi.html Check the pic at the bottom of the page.

Oh, & here http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/view/3357 - Apparently Priscilla sent Bakshi a letter saying she 'absolutely loved the movie'.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

Bit from Bakshi here http://www.angelfire.com/film/rings/...ws/bakshi.html Check the pic at the bottom of the page.

Oh, & here http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/view/3357 - Apparently Priscilla sent Bakshi a letter saying she 'absolutely loved the movie'.

Funniest thing I learnt today from all this is that Baskshi did Fritz the Cat. *knocks head on desk wondering how I never made that connection before*

*thinks of a few Frodo the Cat possibilities for a blog*

Other funny think is that interview with Baskhi. Not as funny as my first revelation though. It's sort of like the mouse complaining that the elephant used some of his shadow.

What sort of score did the animated movie employ? Did Howard Shore have to assiduously avoid certain notes?

Oh Downs, thou hast outDowned thyself today.

[Bêthberry]

Okay, now that I've got over my giddiness about Frodo the Cat, I can make some more sobre observations about that fascinating website davem linked to.

I would like to recommend its webmaster, J.W. Braun, for an honorary membership on the Downs. (I don't know if we have those, but I propose one nonetheless).

Why? Because I was immensely impressed with this page in particular, where JW demonstrates similarities between PJ's movie and Baskshi's movie and compares those scenes to the books: Visual sources Jackson borrowed.

Of course, I suppose Sauron the White will object that a movie must be considered on its own merits and not compared to other oranges--er, movies--but I find this point of view very interesting and I highly commend Mr. Braun (who seems to have given up updating his site) for taking the time to consider the power of visual images.

There, I hope this is a sobre enough post to compensate for my uncharacteristic outburst yesterday.