Dragons - How did they come to be?

[skip spence]

Well, you did say that Tolkien made a mistake of trying to make his fictional world plausable as a real ancient history of our world. I don't agree that it was a mistake, even though he didn't realise his ambition, or was ever likely to. This ambition, although never fully realised, is a major part of the attraction his works has on many fans.

But I don't think we're in any real disagrement. His fictional world did, as you say, evolve over many years and many parts aren't consistant with each other. It seems you've read much more of the obscure works written by (or related to) JRRT than I have. I've recently read "Morgoth's Ring" however and found it fascinating, especially the fictional theology stuff and the writings about the fea and hroa (sp?). What's Osanwe Kenta by the way?

And besides, even if we did accept JRRTs world as complete and fully realised, we must consider its fictional perspective. The writings are presented as stories or rather translations written down by mortal men or hobbits, with sources often having passed though many hands and renditions and with many long years between when the events took place and their final documented form. This would render the stories uncertain truthwise. Also, not even the high elves or the Valar were present at the creation of orcs or dragons or balrogs, and none save Morgoth and his most trusty servants therefore know the full truth about their conception. What is written about the orgins of these creatures are usually presented as the speculations of the wise.

[davem]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Well, you did say that Tolkien made a mistake of trying to make his fictional world plausable as a real ancient history of our world. I don't agree that it was a mistake, even though he didn't realise his ambition, or was ever likely to. This ambition, although never fully realised, is a major part of the attraction his works has on many fans.

But, as CT stated, the project would have been fatal to the mythology. We'd have lost the story of the Two Trees & the creation of the Sun & Moon, the creation & nature of the Silmarils would have had to be altered. 'Myths Transformed' may have contained some interesting ideas (& some beautiful prose) but it would also have been an absolute disaster. Ultimately it was a dead end.

But I don't think we're in any real disagrement. His fictional world did, as you say, evolve over many years and many parts aren't consistant with each other. It seems you've read much more of the obscure works written by (or related to) JRRT than I have. I've recently read "Morgoth's Ring" however and found it fascinating, especially the fictional theology stuff and the writings about the fea and hroa (sp?). What's Osanwe Kenta by the way?

Osanwe Kenta was an essay Tolkien wrote on thought transference in M-e (there's an example of it in LotR where you have Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel & Celeborn sitting together & communicating 'telepathically'.

Here now for seven days they tarried, for the time was at hand for another parting which they were loth to make. Soon Celeborn and Galadriel and their folk would turn eastward, and so pass by the Redhorn Gate and down the Dimrill Stair to the Silverlode and to their own country. They had journeyed thus far by the west-ways, for they had much to speak of with Elrond and with Gandalf, and here they lingered still in converse with their friends. Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they would sit together under the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world, or holding council, concerning the days to come. If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro.

O.K. basically explains how it operates. For some reason it was excluded from HoM-e but published in the Journal Vinyar Tengwar no 39. http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/%C3%93sanwe-kenta