Elrond and Sauron, a personal vendetta?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Now Galadriel had a different temperament, moreover she had dealt with Sauron-Annatar in person. Think how galling it must have been for her to recall the time in Eregion. The very same being who had killed her brother so cruelly was there before her very eyes smiling and showing her deference (and laughing inwardly, no doubt) - and she was unable to stop him from ensnaring and ruining the Mirdain, including her friend and admirer Celebrimbor... Remember how Celebrimbor died? And then Gil-Galad, who was no kin to Elrond, but who was close kin to Galadriel (the grandson of Galadriel's brother Angrod).

I seriously doubt Galadriel knew who Annatar actually was. Of the rings of power mentions nothing of this, in Concerning Galadriel and Cereborn, UT, also nothing is said. Only in a "isolated and undateable" note is is said that " Galadriel was not deceived, saying that this Aulendil was not in the train of Aule in Valinor" - but even this, Tolkien notes, may be for unfounded reasons.

I won't be surprised if Galadriel's hate for Sauron has become very personal after all this. Likely he was ever on her mind.
Quote:
I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed! '- the Mirror of Galadriel

.
Hm, that's quite a play of words, between he seeking her thoughts and she having him on her mind, by intention . If she did have some soft spot, Sauron would have likely used, at least in the ~ 2000 years of the Second Age when he re-became active. The very success she had in overcoming the temptation of the ring points that she had a strong, positive, moral structure; anything else would have been, in my opinion, her utter downfall.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I seriously doubt Galadriel knew who Annatar actually was.

I agree - at the time she had only vague suspicions at best. But you missed my point :what did Galadriel feel when she thought back to this time, when she recalled it - knowing already with certainty who Annatar really had been? He had duped her then and got away with it and killed more of her dear ones and prevented her from using Nenya for a half-age. Galling?

If she did have some soft spot, Sauron would have likely used, at least in the ~ 2000 years of the Second Age when he re-became active. The very success she had in overcoming the temptation of the ring points that she had a strong, positive, moral structure; anything else would have been, in my opinion, her utter downfall.

Is a desire for vengeance a soft spot? I don't think her soft, just the opposite. As for the ring, she was sorely tempted by it - more so, IMO, than Elrond had ever been, again because of her prideful natiure.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

It seems to me as if the question here is not who had stronger grounds for seeking revenge, but who would have been more likely, due to their nature, to act on it, given a real chance. Both Elrond and Galadriel have what I think are equally compelling reasons to want to see him defeated. But who would have directly taken revenge, when the opportunity presented itself? Elrond knew the danger of allowing the Ring to continue existing, and was potentially in a position to at least attempt its destruction at the end of the Second Age. Tolkien never tells us that Elrond ever had any strong desire to take the Ring, even to destroy it. He tried to persuade Isildur to do it, yes, but we aren't told that the thought of grabbing it himself ever entered Elrond's mind. I think that may well have been the point at which he was most vulnerable to the lure of the Ring, and from what we know, he didn't act on it, even in his thoughts.

Galadriel certainly did; it's spelled out for us quite clearly, not only in her words leading up to her refusal of it, but also in the fact that the Valar considered her refusal perhaps the most important thing she ever did in her resistance of the Enemy, as it signaled the rejection of the personal pride that had led her to leave Valinor against their injunction, and her refusal to return with the other exiles at the end of the First Age. Elrond is a loremaster and a healer; though he is master of Rivendell, he shows no desire to rule any greater realm, or to have political mastery over the lives of others. Galadriel, on the other hand, left Valinor because of her desire to have a realm to rule as her own; she is politically powerful because she sought that position, not because fate thrust it upon her. Their temperaments are quite different, and I think the matter of pride is a significant part of that difference. It would seem that it was not a mighty struggle for Elrond to reject the Ring, but it certainly was for Galadriel. All of which, I suppose, could mean that though both might well desire revenge against Sauron, Galadriel, I think, would be more likely to actively seek it.

[Gordis]

Ibrin- very good analysis

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Gordis

what did Galadriel feel when she thought back to this time, when she recalled it - knowing already with certainty who Annatar really had been? He had duped her then and got away with it and killed more of her dear ones and prevented her from using Nenya for a half-age. Galling?

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

All of which, I suppose, could mean that though both might well desire revenge against Sauron, Galadriel, I think, would be more likely to actively seek it.

Whatever strong feelings she had, it was Elrond, not Galadriel, who planned out and marched against Sauron in a ten years war.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Is a desire for vengeance a soft spot?

I believe it is, especially morally so - which could prove fatal (if Galadriel, besides and above her natural temptation towards the ring also nurtured feelings of revenged, she would have been most likely doomed when confronted with the ring) ; in any confrontation of wills, be it direct or not, having a negative emotion driving your actions is a great liability, which an enemy could use to his advantage, by baiting, feeding whatever expectations you might have - it is the same strategy that Gandalf & co used against Sauron, they knew how he would think and react.

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Raynor, surely you know that just because stuff is not mentioned in sourses it does not mean that it was not the case.

True, but then it is a case of personal opinion .

[Gordis]

Raynor: Whatever strong feelings she had, it was Elrond, not Galadriel, who planned out and marched against Sauron in a ten years war.

You mean the Last Alliance war? It was actually a twelve- years war, 3429-3441

I think Galadriel was not there first and foremost because she was a woman. Eldar never normally send their women to fight - neither Melian, nor Galadriel, nor Aredhel ever actively participated in battles of the First Age. As far as we know, Galadriel only took a sword once in her life - in Alqualonde.

Another reason is perhaps that at the time, neither she, not Celeborn had any people of their own to lead to battle. I have an impression that Celeborn wasn't in the Last Alliance fights either.

But staying behind only makes one more bitter, IMO.

Note also that after the victory Galadriel went to Dol Guldur and brought its walls down (with relish ).

As for the "soft spot" - I agree that a vendetta-like disposition is a character flaw, making one more vulnerable to Enemy. Simply I wouldn't call it a "soft" spot.
Take Celeborn and his attitude to Dwarves. He got much more personal in his dislike than an average elf like Legolas. I don't think it made him "softer" but it caused a lot of problems for his neighbours and himself. Had he given some support or advice to Balin et al., perhaps the attempt to re-colonise Moria wouldn't have failed so tragically.

And don't you agree with Ibrin and me that Galadriel seemed to be much more tempted by the Master Ring than Elrond?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Gordis

It was actually a twelve- years war, 3429-3441

That is so, if we consider that the war started with Sauron's attack on Gondor - although the last alliance was formed in the following year. In fact, even my ten year estimates was a bit off, since the battle started only in 3434.

Eldar never normally send their women to fight

But this was not a normal situation:

Originally Posted by Of the rings of power and the third age, Silmarillion

Now Elendil and Gil-galad took counsel together, for they perceived that Sauron would grow too strong and would overcome all his enemies one by one, if they did not unite against him.

And the nissi do rise to battle when such a dire need comes, Galadriel moreso than any.

Another reason is perhaps that at the time, neither she, not Celeborn had any people of their own to lead to battle.

I doubt she couldn't find a handful of warriors to lead at one of the most important battles of all time (the Dunedain joined a similarly important battle, an Age later, only a handful too), nor that it would have mattered to her if she was driven by thirst for revenge. Moreover, she was a great warrior by herself, which could have been of great value.

Simply I wouldn't call it a "soft" spot.

Well, I didn't mean it in the sense of softness, but, as you said, vulnerability.

And don't you agree with Ibrin and me that Galadriel seemed to be much more tempted by the Master Ring than Elrond?

True, but, as I mentioned previously, her passing of the test proves the level of her moral fiber. The greater the test, the higher the valor .

[Elmo]

I can't imagine why Celeborn would not fight against Sauron in the alliance especially after his role in Eregion. Elves stay able to fight all their life so it would make to try and take all your strength to Dagorlad despite him personally not having an army behind his back. I doubt they marched with the Wood Elves because surely Celeborn would have been able to prevent Amdir's suicidal charge he is called the Wise for a reason. Or maybe Amdir just ignored him!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Elmo

I can't imagine why Celeborn would not fight against Sauron in the alliance especially after his role in Eregion. Elves stay able to fight all their life so it would make to try and take all your strength to Dagorlad despite him personally not having an army behind his back. I doubt they marched with the Wood Elves because surely Celeborn would have been able to prevent Amdir's suicidal charge he is called the Wise for a reason. Or maybe Amdir just ignored him!

Good questions, but the problem is that Celeborn was never mentioned in relation to the Last Alliance battles. Yet we know that Elrond, Cirdan, Gil-Galad, Amdir and Oropher were there. (By the way, I think it was Oropher who attacked earlier than planned, while Amdir was cut from the main forces and perished in the Dead Marches).
The apparent absence of Celeborn in the Last Alliance war could be a simple omission but, alternatively, Celeborn might have stayed behind for some reason. I can think of a possible one:
If Celeborn were Thingol's kinsman (LOTR and Silm), specifically "the grandson of Thingol's brother Elmo" (UT), then he was by right the Lord of Sindarin Elves, and should have been superior to both Oropher and Amdir - Sindar from Doriath. Yet these two guys had founded their own kingdoms and bowed to no one. Celeborn, by contrast, lost his own lordship of Eregion and all his people and wandered here and there, mostly living in Belfalas. Perhaps he couldn't take part in the Alliance with both Amdir and Oropher refusing him their allegiance?
Just a hypothesis.

[Eönwë]

Women are weak and soft? Pah! Look at Boudicca! (I would normally be prone to "males are better" thoughts, being male, but this is ridiculous!)


Galadriel definiely had more reason to want vengeance than Elrond, but that does not mean that Elronf did not hate him with the most intense bitter hate.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

The apparent absence of Celeborn in the Last Alliance war could be a simple omission but, alternatively, Celeborn might have stayed behind for some reason. I can think of a possible one.

And I can think of another: If you send absolutely everyone off to war, who takes care of what you left behind, and hope to return to? Who does the work to provide the supplies your army will need during a long war, and who will keep the supply lines open? It's not the kind of task that usually gets remembered when the war is over, but it is as essential to its success as those who go out and fight on the front lines. Celeborn may well have had unsung talents as an administrator rather than a military mind. Since he has a reputation as being wise, I think it would certainly demonstrate wisdom to be willing to remain behind where there is little glory, but considerable and much needed work to be done.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I seriously doubt Galadriel knew who Annatar actually was. Of the rings of power mentions nothing of this, in Concerning Galadriel and Cereborn, UT, also nothing is said. Only in a "isolated and undateable" note is is said that "Galadriel was not deceived, saying that this Aulendil was not in the train of Aule in Valinor" - but even this, Tolkien notes, may be for unfounded reasons..

Raynor, surely you know that just because stuff is not mentioned in sourses it does not mean that it was not the case. . . I have not made my mind up about what to think here so if you have any other arguments they would be much aprichiated. (sorry for being sticking to the topic)